Regarding legitimate use cases:
It would be a perfectly legitimate use for someone to download any and
all content they have received on FleepGrid and then import that
content into any other grid. Every item available to another user via
$0 sale or "take a copy" on my grid is CC licensed for such use (to
the best of my knowledge) and there would be nothing illegal, immoral,
or unethical about it. In fact, I encourage it!
Likewise, it would be a perfectly legitimate use for someone to
download all 500+ items I have created and listed on the FleepGrid
webshop, which are primarily in IAR format, and then upload those
items to any other grid. Right now, as far as I know, the only way to
do that is through console access, which means only grid owners can
really use the items I put on the web, not end users. That's due to a
technical limitation of existing tools, not my intent. My intent is
for anyone to be able to use them. If I understand Snowcrash's
description correctly, his tool would make that possible for any end
user of a grid, which in fact would not only be a legitimate use of
the tool, but a wonderful and extremely helpful addition for those of
us who opensource our content and make it available in IAR format for
transport.
I really don't mean to beat a dead horse, but those are legitimate
uses. To say there is NO legitimate use of such a tool is simply not
true. What is true is that there could be both legitimate and
illegitimate uses. And I agree Snowcrash and any other developers
should do their very best to safeguard against that where possible.
But you can't argue that no legitimate use case exists because I've
just given several. My desire to create content and share it freely
with whoever wants to use it is as legitimate as any other content
creator's desires, and ditto for any law-abiding end user who wishes
to use that content in an easy, convenient, legal way.
Regarding the concept of "my inventory" (lowercase):
I agree with Snowcrash that the concept of "my inventory" is the
mental construct that the vast majority of virtual world users have.
Once I have personally verified the license of an opensource item and
have gained access to it (currently by downloading the IAR or XML file
to my local computer), then I consider that file to be "mine" (or my
licensed copy if you prefer) to use as I wish, on any grid I wish.
The creator said I could. Great! Except the ability to actually use
that item on any grid I wish requires me to upload it over and over
each time I go to a new grid. And for IAR items, the only portable
format that fully preserves an item, I can only upload it if I have
console access to the simulator - which of course I do not have access
to on any grids but my own. That is not an ideal situation at all. I
have an inventory of stuff that is mine to use, my inventory, but
using it on every grid I visit is at the moment an exceedingly
cumbersome process at best, and maybe not even possible at all unless
I have console access.
A tool that would allow me to upload all the legally licensed XML and
IAR files I am currently storing on my local computer to a third party
service, that would hold those files for me, and then magically import
them into any grid I visit without me having to manually do it item by
item myself would be a godsend - and perfectly legal, legitimate,
ethical, and proper. I know every XML and IAR file on my local
computer is licensed for such use and I would use such a tool with no
hesitation at all, and would probably want to kiss the developer who
made it because it would save me an enormous amount of time and effort.
Regarding third party inventory services:
So let's say 20 reputable opensource content creators got together and
decided to pool our resources to make a repository of content
available, and we each had 500 items to contribute. Think Linda
Kellie, who has the most open permissions of any Opensim creator I
know, or Vanish Seriath of Opensim Creations, etc. So now we have a
repository of 10,000 items that are legally licensed from trusted
sources that can be used on any grid. Would you really argue the
ideal situation is that each user should manually download each item
from that repository and then each user should manually upload each
item to each and every grid every time they want to use something from
it? Surely not, that's crazy. But that's pretty much the current
situation.
The ideal situation would be to have my inventory of legally licensed
freebie and purchased content (if it was licensed for such use) hosted
not on each grid, but somewhere else, and accessible to me no matter
what grid I travel to without me having to do any uploading at all.
When I log on to a grid, some established protocol talks to my
inventory (or inventories, I can imagine multiple services/sources),
displays it as a folder when I open my inventory in the GUI, and makes
a local copy of an item only when I rez it out into the world, or wear
it, or whatever. Or something like that. For freebie licensed
content, perhaps grids subscribe to the third party inventory
repository and provide it as a folder in the library for every user of
their grid, or.. I dunno! I can imagine many permutations.
I am not a developer, so I don't fully understand all the mechanisms
and protocols that exist or could exist to make that kind of
functionality possible. But in general, it seems like Snowcrash's
tool is trying to implement some version of that concept, and I for
one am very interested in seeing how it might be implemented in a
legal and ethical way. It would solve what I view as one of the
biggest obstacles to Opensim adoption - lack of easy availability and
portability of known, legally licensed, trusted content.
Regarding opensource content creators and the need for better
mechanisms to share opensource content:
I think Linda, Vanish, and I might be three largest web-based
opensource content providers at the moment, but there may be more that
I don't know about. I obviously can't speak for them, but for myself,
I spend an _enormous_ amount of time, energy, and what amateur skill I
possess not just making items for the community, but countless
additional hours packaging them up, indexing them, loading them onto a
website, and doing my best to make it easy for people to actually port
them wherever they want and _use_ them.
Since I am not a coder or a programmer, I unfortunately can't
contribute to the development of the Opensim code itself. Creating
openly licensed content represents my attempt to contribute to the
Opensim community in another way. Which is why it is quite sad to me
that for all the countless hours of effort I've dedicated to making
these resources available to people, in the hopes of making a
significant positive contribution to the Opensim community, the
current technical limitations prevents the vast majority of end users
from being able to use my content at all!
If Snowcrash is trying to resolve that problem, I am behind that
effort 100%, even if I share everyone's concerns about illegitimate
uses and the need to protect others rights, and sincerely hope that
those issues and concerns can be addressed, too. But I can't agree
there's no legitimate need or use for a tool such as this - from my
perspective, there is in fact a great need for it.
. . .
I do apologize, both for the tl;dr length of this post and because
I've posted an awful lot in this thread, far more than I usually do.
Clearly I feel passionately about the topic. Maybe I'll try to take a
backseat for a bit to make sure I'm not drowning out other voices and
to think more about all of the possible implications of a tool with
this functionality. And while, for the purposes of this discussion, I
am taking a strong position on the potential benefits for opensource
creators and law-abiding end users, I hope it's clear that I genuinely
understand, respect, and agree with many of the concerns that have
been raised as well. I want all content creators' and grid owners'
rights to be respected, not just my own.
Sincerely,
- Chris/Fleep
On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Teravus Ovares <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Just one thing to add, since you have yet to respond to my requests.
" so now releasing a legitimate tool is the same as performing
wholesale theft"
No, but developing and releasing a tool that has no legitimate
uses IS Illegal. Again, I say, Legitimate as in, a use that
doesn't breach a contract or violate someone else's rights.
Don't stand on your high horse Snowcrash, you're very wrong if you
think that what you're doing is legal.
Comparing your tool to bittorrent is like comparing apples to
oranges. Bittorrent is for distributing content that you have
copyright of. Your tool is for distributing content that you
/don't/ have copyright on. So, lets say, 'backing up' is fair
use. Ok... but when you go to upload it somewhere.. you're
violating the terms of service for that new place because you do
not have the copyright to upload it... and tosses DO say that
you must have the copyright or have permission to upload
copyrighted content from the copyright holder. So,
again.. It HAS NO LEGITIMATE USES.. it is illegal.
Teravus
On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Snowcrash Short
<[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
On Sun, Nov 18, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Melanie <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Hi,
On 18/11/2012 17:14, Snowcrash Short wrote:
> I fail completely to see how this tool can be a threat,
let alone to a
> hobbyist running a small grid. If content creators labor
under the wrong
> impression that this tool is like copy-bot, then I could
see why some
> content creators might see this as a problem.
>
This tool is PRECISELY like Copybot. It allows by default
to export
items that the creator has not permitted export for and
has not
expected that export would be easily possible.
Actually it isn't, copybot - as you can see from the links I
have provided - is designed to copy any view-able content,
i.e. if it is present in the region, copybot enables you to
copy that item. Oddly enough, that is far simpler to do than
backing up contents in a users inventory. The complete
functionality for copying contents in a region - alá copybot -
is actually already implemented in libomv, so will you ban
every use of libomv as well?.
This tool does indeed permit users to commit illegal acts by
default. Depending on the jurisdiction, download and/or
upload are
limited by law unless explicitly permitted. Where limited
by a TOS,
it is illegal practically everywhere.
Nope, as a licensee I am per default allowed to use the
licensed material in any way I see fit, as long as I do not
violate the copyright of the copyright holder. This includes
backing up, migrating to other media, and modifying for
personal use. Said rights are available to me, unless I have
entered into an agreement with the copyright holder not to do so.
I do see the fundamental disagreement between the
community and
yourself - the community stands firmly behind the concept of
intellectual property and itemwise sale while you appear
to believe
that digital items are mostly unowned and available to
everyone to
be used as they see fit.
Where have I at any point rejected the concept of intellectual
property? or claimed that the licensees are unrestricted in
their uses? never!, you are claims are even beyond
misrepresenting what I have said.
Please take a moment to consider - digital items _are_
property.
They belong to someone and that someone is not the owner
of the
inventory. It's the creator.
And the license grant purchased from the copyright holder is
property too!
A tool like this has the potential to
cause commercial creators to shun OpenSim completely and
withdraw
into SL, leaving the OpenSim based worlds at the quality
level of
freebies. For many of us, that quality level is not
sufficient. This
is why closed grids and content protection exist.
And which is why I have offered to enable protection to those
grids by implementing either the same policy as governs LL's
grids or any other policy which can feasibly be implemented.
Bringing inventory only while logged in doesn't work on a
technical
basis either. Assets must be present on the grid for
viewing even
after the user leaves.
Only assets rez'ed and left by the user needs to remain, they
do not need to be stored in any inventory, since they are
visible in the region, as such there is no real technical need
for a huge asset server held by the grid
The only thing that would be feasible to
transport with the avatar is clothing items and that
concept has
been discussed by Diva and myself years ago. The issue
then was that
the viewer was still GPL and off limits, so the viewer
changes for
that feature were considered out of reach. However, that
would still
not allow purchased items to travel with the user.
Are you too fine to touch GPL code? Admittedly the build
process of the viewer is quite intricate, but the source is
out there. Besides, who says that the URL returned in response
for a CAPS request needs to reside on the server responding to
the CAPS request?
Creators have the expectation that the grid they upload
their items
to protects their IP rights. They don't expect the user to
be aware
of the law or follow it - they expect the grids to do that
with
their TOS and their legal teams.
If that was the case, I pity the hobbiest grid operators,
because putting the onus of protecting content creators assets
on individual grid operators is leaving them wide open to
litigation!
SecondInventory has respected this by disallowing the
download of
items the user has not created. They made that impossible
to change
by keeping their tool closed source. Their tool has become the
accepted means of moving creations between worlds.
As open source, your tool can be trivially modified by the
less
morally inclined. I would expect the community to shun
your too like
copybot is shunned. I would expect the reputation of
copies of your
tool that have been illegally modified to reflect on the
original,
unmodified tool and thereby cause grids, over time, to
detect and
ban the use of any tool descended from it, ban the users
using it
and confiscate inventories from these users. Is it really your
desire to become the author of super copybot?
You seem to have great respect for my coding skills "super
copybot", the source code for everything is already out there,
all I have done is combine what already exists and wrap it in
a user interface.
Your standard response of "closed source is security by
obscurity"
doesn't wash either. If there were a tool out there that
is easy to
use and allows trivially copying complete items on a large
scale and
that tool were just hard to find, I'd have to agree.
However, there
is no such tool.
Yes there is, libomv, backup command line tool!
All existing tools are complex or broken, often
both. Releasing your tool as open source can be extremely
harmful to
the continuum of grids commonly known as the "metaverse".
A significant portion of the metaverse relies on commerce and
commerce cannot be sustained in the presence of wholesale
theft.
great piece of demagoguery, are you by any
chance rhetorically trained? so now releasing a legitimate
tool is the same as performing wholesale theft?
Since you are going beyond misrepresentation and resorting to
demagoguery I can only surmise that you still oppose the tool
but lack additional rational arguments against it.
Best regards
Snowcrash
- Melanie
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