> NOTE: send an email to Derek Cicero to have your
> email changed.
> 
Stevel agreed to help me with that - he has my new email and I am waiting on 
him to update it.

> No, if you understood the process better, Sun made
> some huge progress.
>
Not having SCM, not having a proper commit/review process, not having even 
insignificant outside contributions,  after more than a year, that does not fit 
in my definition of progress especially if you consider a "open" project's 
goals. Sorry.

> 
> In regards to these, it will take time to not just
> put in place, but to help 
> it grow.
>
You are missing the point though - community participation can speed things up 
a lot and we are missing participation and we continue to ignore the root 
causes of lack of participation.
 
> Yes, because Sun employees are the majority of
> engineers that understand and 
> can work with the code. A good majority of the folks
> outside of Sun have not 
> even pulled or looked at the sources. You don't
> expect the engineers who have 
> been working on this code for man years to just allow
> any willy-nilly person 
> to have some willy-nilly patch accepted and putback,
> do you?
> 
No I do not expect low quality high volume changes, AT ALL. I don't know why 
you exclude high quality high volume changes - perhaps because you believe only 
Sun engineers can do that? No one will agree with you there. It's not like all 
smart people work for Sun. There are lot many smart people who did many amazing 
things, all outside of Sun. 
 
> Do you have a patch/fix that you would like to
> submit?
I have the ability to submit patches  in a significant way but I am not gonna 
bother doing it until basics are fixed - I do not believe it's a fair and 
intuitive process that OpenSolaris has currently. It is not open enough, it has 
intolerable red tapism and it can only work in the interests of Sun. Someone 
independent is needed to control the affairs and the process should be designed 
with inputs from community rather than dictated by Sun.  

> Do you have a specific device that is really
> preventing you from using 
> Solaris/OpenSolaris?

About 8 different x86/64 boxes - and I am not alone by any means. Only place 
where it works reasonably is VMware. Has Sun any interest in fixing x86 
hardware support? When? If there is genuine interest in fixing this I can file 
bug reports. You lost one community member - Sun won't fix x86 h/w support and 
community is not even expected to fix it.


> Most of them shouldn't as they have done little or no
> work on it. If you 
> worked on this code for 15 years, you would feel that
> you are a part of it. 
> This is how the Sun engineers feel, many of them have
> worked on the code for 
> a good number of years. It is their work that has
> made our community 
> appreciate the system, enough to be here.

That is beside the point though. You already *have* employees doing their work 
- this thread is about active community participation.

> 
> > 3) Contributing changes remains hard
> 
> I expect them to be, and I think the current process
> does work. It's no easier 
> to do a putback on the inside of Sun, this is where
> the illusion is. It is 
> hard to do a putback, because there are engineers
> that are passionate about 
> the product and strive to keep the quality.
> 
It is also a process which has proved to be big time slow. It is time to 
recognize that better alternatives exist - two trees, one development 
controlled by some one independent and driven purely by community interests and 
one Sun's own tree. Let community set their standards, do what they care about 
and let Sun cherry pick what they need and what passes their quality bars. 
Benefit everyone, unlike years without progress and only Sun drives and 
benefits.

> If Sun would just get out of the way as you suggest,
> and let the external 
> folks do what they wanted, OpenSolaris would be a
> real mess. 
Wow - that is so wrong. You would not want to apply the same analogy in say a 
child's case, forget adults for a moment. Cause then it will never learn, never 
venture into depths and never take risks. You basically are saying that 
everyone else is a fool. That could not be right. You limit the possibilities  
by asserting some totally wrong assumption and being a control freak.


> 
> We're moving to a model where changes will go into
> OpenSolaris first, then Sun 
> will pull those changes into their own Solaris
> distribution. This will still 
> take time to hash out and make work, a huge step that
> has never been 
> attempted previously.

That is all fine-n-dandy if community controls what goes into OpenSolaris.
 
 
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