Lurie wrote:
Yes.. writing an entire package manager from the
ground up is *less* work than maintaining the patches.
This is called "moving forward", IPS is based on new novel ideas, a secure
package manager without any arbitrary post/pre-install scripts, which is fast, doesn't
hog the system upon installation and is very easy to use, and upgrades the whole system
at once, versus just the packages, which ensures you won't have any conflicts.
If everyone would do as you suggest and just "copy everything" because it's
easier, there would be no innovations in OpenSolaris at all. And IPS *is* an innovation
in my book. I've been using IPS since its inception, for how long have you been using it ?
ok.. lets keep this technical and anecdotal free please..
1) I evaluated 15 packages managers and packaging formates. This
included not only the package deliver, but also the build process.
2) I received a lot of feedback from industry experts like Jeff Johnson
and others to ultimately come up with something RPM5-like
3) I have a proof of concept integration of this new format integrated
with smart package manager
4) Smart package manager is *very* friendly to upstream and more than
happy to work with accepting patches for new formats
Now your points... one by one..
-------
5) "a secure package manager without any arbitrary post/pre-install scripts"
Ok.. so wait a second.. Let's first of all define "secure" because last
I checked the IPS authorities aren't signed.. Are they? You're only
looking at it from one angle.. If a package is signed and trusted by
the authority then the script isn't arbitrary. It was designed and
created with a sole purpose. If it *is* arbitrary I don't think I'd
blame the package delivery system, but the policy for those who are
backing it. When the IPS repo is handling 10k+ unique pieces of
software lets talk. Those scripts are there to add *robustness* to the
many facets which in a pragmatic world exist with open source software.
Not every package maintainer is being paid to create their own makefiles
and integrate it into SFW. So.. am I the choir on this.. actually.. I
think some features are *good*.. Does removing pre/post scripts warrant
a new package manager.. Bluntly put.. No.. it sure hell doesn't.. This
is why people who have a clue are so pissed off.. Because good people
have been fired before, but there's still this rogue team wasting cycles
on stuff which could ultimately be spent elsewhere.. So forgive me and
other when we are a bit rude and aggressive...</rant>
6) doesn't hog the system upon installation
Is this a technical statement? What is this "hog" you're referring
to.. please try to state facts and not opinions.. or at least give some
accurate measure and comparison..
7) is very easy to use...
ok. you got me there... they were able to make a cli interface that is
at least comparable to things which have been around for 15 years.. :)
However, to have your argument actually be a valid point you'd have to
compare it to something which is common and not easy to use..
8) upgrades the whole system at once, versus just the packages, which
ensures you won't have any conflicts
I think you're getting something a bit confused here.. Firstly, being
able to selectively update parts of your system is a design choice and
feature.. The benefit I *think* you're referring to is the file level
dependency resolution. With this it upgrades only the *files* you need
to vs the whole package. The motivation for this afaik is to make the
dependency resolution smarter. What you fail to see is a few points though.
a) That in itself doesn't ensure conflicts won't happen
b) because of the way manifests are created from entire packages
just like any normal or sane packaging system you're still just as
likely to have unresolved dependencies or blockers. (I don't know for
certain a missing file can't pull for *any* manifest even one which
provides the same package at a different version)
c) if you argue that is saves bandwidth.. I'll argue that it has
delayed being able to easily establish a mirroring system, it forces a
custom daemon, there's no on-disk format (maybe this was resolve
recently) and you *still* can't do an offline install. I'll add to that
that ever 2 weeks updating it from europe is *painful*. It crashes,
times out and overall take a long time.. (and I'm not even talking about
the dependency resolution here) For something which with a straight
http pull could be achieved in 10 minutes takes 3 hours! I'm not
kidding on this at all. (I've timed it)
9) If everyone would do as you suggest and just "copy everything"
because it's easier..
LOL... read above.. who on earth said I copy stuff because it's
easier.. It's called evaluating and making a good choice. I can show
my evaluation and results.. I have a table comparing various aspects and
the benefits of each. IPS has some scattered blog entries and a few
lost arguments which haven't made a dent. Someone is senior enough to
keep pushing it and must not have anything better to do.. That's all I
see... So.. if I'm wrong.. someone show me where they evaluated smart
package manager or anything else.. What's more is that you're making my
argument that IPS *is* a research project and not feature complete. I
agree.. that over the course of months and months there is progress.. At
what cost? How many man hours/years are spent doing all this when
something great can be achieved by leveraging a proven and stable
codebase.. (This is really my point and not to be confused with trying
to say that innovation shouldn't happen)
10) I've been using IPS since its inception, for how long have you been
using it ?
This is you just trying to discredit what I've said. As you can see
above I think you're just an end user that isn't really clear on what's
going on or slightly mistaken in some points. *If* you have used IPS
for as long as you say you have I think you'd be a bit more empathetic
to certain facts. Did it allow you to cleanly migrate from the original
05/08 release until today? I'm sure at some point you've had to do a
fresh install or skipped many updates. There's been a number of bugs
since the original version.
You've completely ignored all the missing features, but it's not like
I'm the voice of reason here.. Nobody will listen to the dozens of other
developers who have similar opinions as me.. So from your points above..
Anything I missed?
./C
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