Jamie, thanks for going into so much detail.

On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Matthew Farina <m...@mattfarina.com> wrote:

> While reading this it struck me that we should prioritize the experience
> of end-user, that is application developers, over the experience of those
> working on the SDK. I don't think we'd ever directly talked about this so I
> wanted to take a moment and state it.
>
> What I put in below isn't my full set of questions but I think it's enough
> for now.
>
> On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 11:34 AM, Jamie Hannaford <
> jamie.hannaf...@rackspace.com> wrote:
>
>>   Thanks Matt for bringing up these questions - I think having this kind
>> of discussion is essential for such a big idea. It also helps me clarify my
>> own thinking towards this issue.
>>
>>  Before I answer, I want to point out that I'm not staunchly for or
>> against any particular idea. I do think that schemas offer a lot of
>> advantages over writing user-land code, but I'm more than willing to
>> abandon the proposal if we all determine there's a stronger and more
>> compelling alternative.
>>
>>  *1. Why use schemas instead of userland code?*
>>
>>  I've put my answer to this question here:
>> https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack-SDK-PHP/JSON-schema
>>
>
> Can we look at this from the experience an end user would have? In the
> Python SDK they are working on an ORM style system. It's sorta similar to
> the system currently in the PHP SDK. For example you could do something
> like this in Python,
>
>     o = Container.get_by_id('foo').get_object('bar/baz.awesome')
>
> I would imagine something similar in PHP like,
>
>     $o = $objectStore->getContainer('foo')->getObject('bar/baz.awesome');
>
> I don't think you can do this using the json schema code I've seen so far.
> Can you touch on the experience for developers who are using the library?
> For example, the coding style or ability to know what they have access to?
> I was just thinking of how magic methods using a schema aren't going to
> work for tools that do autocompletion.
>
> I'm curious about blueprints for the schema support. Things on the mailing
> list are great. I'm curious about plans and what's in the blueprints. Do
> you have any info on that?
>
> If the other SDKs aren't interested in using json schema, wouldn't that be
> a lack of consistency?
>
>
>>
>>  *2. How will debugging work?*
>>
>>  I'll highlight two conceivable issues which might need debugging. The
>> first issue is the API rejecting a request for whatever reason (i.e. a
>> proxy modifying headers); the second issue is when a data structure
>> returned from the API fails to validate against a particular schema file.
>>
>>  *Issue 1: Malformed requests*
>> There are two reasons why a request would fail: if an end-user stocks it
>> with bad data, or if something in the middle deforms it. A very easy
>> solution to the first problem is using schemas to perform basic parameter
>> checking before a request is serialized. If we know, for example, that the
>> API is expecting a particular value - or a particular header - the schema
>> is in charge of making that happen. Performing basic validation catches
>> most errors - and debugging is very easy due to the exception thrown. If
>> you're ever in doubt, you just refer to the schema to see what was
>> serialized into a request in the same way you do for a concrete class
>> method.
>>
>>  If something in the middle deforms the request, the API will naturally
>> reject it. When it comes to debugging this issue, all you need to do is
>> wrap your original code in a try/catch block and use Guzzle's
>> BadResponseException to return the API's response. You can easily see
>> the type of failure through the HTTP status code, and the exact reason why
>> the request failed. So it doesn't matter where the failure happens - all
>> that matters is that there's a way to catch and spit out the API's response
>> and the originating request.
>>
>>
> First, this assumes Guzzle. Since we aren't tightly coupled to Guzzle we
> can't always assume that. But, for practical purposes we can assume it for
> now.
>
> I was curious how things would work in PHP, such as the stack trace. For
> magic methods you'll have a call to the magic method and to __call() where
> the logic actually sits. In a debugger you'll be able to step through this
> just fine.
>
> One thing that may be more difficult is that knowing how the json schema
> system works to debug and understand what's going on. How the schemas work
> and how something gets translated into a method. Walking through a few
> methods that are extended would be less logic to understand in the process.
>
> I'm curious how the debugging experience would be for an end user who
> doesn't know the json schema system but is using the library. Out of
> curiosity I might try to find some time to sit down with some PHP
> developers and see how they handle the debugging experience.
>
>
>>  *Issue 2: Incorrect API data *
>> Say we've defined that a Server has two properties: a name (which is a
>> string) and metadata (which is an object). If the API returns a name as an
>> array, that obviously fails validation. When the schema code goes to
>> validate the API data, it will raise validation error when it comes to
>> validate that "name" property. How you consequently use this validation
>> error them is completely up to you: you could output it to STDOUT, you
>> could save it to a local log on the filesystem, you could buffer it
>> temporarily in memory.
>>
>>  Any API data that does not validate successfully against a schema
>> should not be presented to the end-user. So if a "created_date" property is
>> returned, that isn't defined in our schema, it should not be populated in
>> the resulting model. The model returned to the end-user would be a simple
>> object that implements \ArrayAccess, meaning that it can be accessed like a
>> simple array.
>>
>
>>  *3. Where would JSON schemas come from?*
>>
>>  It depends on each OpenStack service. Glance and Marconi (soon) offer
>> schemas directly through the API - so they are directly responsible for
>> maintaining this - we'd just consume it. We could probably cache a local
>> version to minimize requests.
>>
>>  For services that do not offer schemas yet, we'd have to use local
>> schema files. There's a project called Tempest which does integration tests
>> for OpenStack clusters, and it uses schema files. So there might be a
>> possibility of using their files in the future. If this is not possible,
>> we'd write them ourselves. It took me 1-2 days to write the entire Nova
>> API. Once a schema file has been fully tested and signed off as 100%
>> operational, it can be frozen as a set version.
>>
>
> Can we convert the schema files from Tempest into something we can use?
>
>
>>
>>  *4. What would the workflow look like?*
>>
>>  I don't really understand what you mean: can you elaborate?
>>
>
> For example, when would validation happen? Is that for testing or runtime
> for use in an application?
>
>
>>
>>  *5. How does schema files handle business logic?*
>>
>>  That's a really great question. I've written a brief write-up here:
>> https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack-SDK-PHP/JSON-schema-business-logic<https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack-SDK-PHP/JSON-schema-business-logic#So_how_can_it_be_done_well.3F>
>>
>>
> I think what you're proposing is that the methods map to API calls. There
> isn't any logic in these objects that isn't an API call.
>
>
>>
>>  Jamie
>>
>>   From: Matthew Farina <m...@mattfarina.com>
>> Date: Thursday, April 24, 2014 at 5:42 PM
>> To: Jamie Hannaford <jamie.hannaf...@rackspace.com>, "OpenStack
>> Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" <
>> openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>
>> Cc: "sam.c...@hp.com" <sam.c...@hp.com>
>> Subject: [openstack-sdk-php] discussion: json schema to define apis
>>
>>   Jamie (and whom ever else wants to jump in),
>>
>>  It's been proposed to use json schema to describe the API calls rather
>> than code. The operations to perform and what they do would be
>> described rather than coded and then some code would use the schema to
>> know how to act.
>>
>>  Others are already doing this. For example, the AWS SDK for PHP. Take
>> their S3 structure as an example
>>
>> https://github.com/aws/aws-sdk-php/blob/master/src/Aws/S3/Resources/s3-2006-03-01.php
>> .
>> The ability to do this goes beyond this one example. It just appears
>> to be something similar to what we're considering.
>>
>>  Given this in the scope of PHP I've got a number of questions. Several
>> of these I've compiled while discussing this with others so they don't
>> represent my point of view. Rather, they are just a list of
>> outstanding questions. Since this is a different method for handling
>> the API calls from the other SDKs being built the concept should be
>> really vetted.
>>
>>  Here are the questions:
>>
>>  1. Why use json schema rather than other reuse methods? I've discussed
>> the use of json schemas with others and those working on the other
>> languages have not been interested in json schema at the moment. Why
>> do it differently given the context?
>>
>>  Note, it might be worth looking at the python SDK which is doing
>> things differently. If I understand it right they are moving aware
>> from using managers and resources all together.
>>
>>  2. How will debugging work in practice? For example, a call is made
>> from behind a proxy. The proxy alters the HTTP headers so the request
>> fails and an exception is thrown. The schema and endpoint are valid.
>> It's something in the middle that changed things. Walking through the
>> code goes through magic methods to handle the schema. How would
>> debugging that work to understand what's happening compared to what
>> was expected.
>>
>>  3. Where would the json schemas for services come from and who would
>> manage them?
>>
>>  4. What would the workflow look like for working with the schemas at
>> both execution time for everyday use and for testing?
>>
>>  5. How would logic happen? Sometimes a request to an API is more than
>> just a request and response. For example, calling to something in
>> object storage where the object does not exist. The transport layer
>> will throw an exception (this goes all the way down to Guzzle throwing
>> one) that needs to be caught and managed. How should cases with some
>> logic like this be handled and easy to understand?
>>
>>  Thanks for looking into this. The topic has really sparked my
>> interest. I for one am really curious about the practicalities of
>> using json schema and the developer experience around it.
>>
>>  - Matt Farina
>>
>>
>>
>>   Jamie Hannaford
>>
>> Software Developer III - CH
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>>
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