On 22/08/14 11:19, Thierry Carrez wrote:
Zane Bitter wrote:
On 22/08/14 08:33, Thierry Carrez wrote:
We also
still need someone to have the final say in case of deadlocked issues.

-1 we really don't.

I know we disagree on that :)

No problem, you and I work in different programs so we can both get our way ;)

People say we don't have that many deadlocks in OpenStack for which the
PTL ultimate power is needed, so we could get rid of them. I'd argue
that the main reason we don't have that many deadlocks in OpenStack is
precisely *because* we have a system to break them if they arise.

s/that many/any/ IME and I think that threatening to break a deadlock by
fiat is just as bad as actually doing it. And by 'bad' I mean
community-poisoningly, trust-destroyingly bad.

I guess I've been active in too many dysfunctional free and open source
software projects -- I put a very high value on the ability to make a
final decision. Not being able to make a decision is about as
community-poisoning, and also results in inability to make any
significant change or decision.

I'm all for getting a final decision, but a 'final' decision that has been imposed from outside rather than internalised by the participants is... rarely final.

I have yet to see a deadlock in Heat that wasn't resolved by better communication. Who knows, maybe the rest of the Heat team will say that I'm crazy and that we still need a tech lead to break deadlocks, but I'd at least like the team to have the option to try formalising what has been our long-standing practice of not doing it.

encourages everyone to find a lazy consensus. That part of the PTL job
works. Let's fix the part that doesn't work (scaling/burnout).

Let's allow projects to decide for themselves what works. Not every
project is the same.

The net effect of not having a PTL having the final call means the final
call would reside at the Technical Committee level. I don't feel like
the Technical Committee should have final say on a project-specific
matter. It's way better that the local leader, chosen by all the
contributors of THAT project every 6 months, makes that final decision.
Or do you also want to get rid of the Technical Committee ?

Haha, I don't want to get rid of the TC, but I agree that having them stepping in to resolve technical disputes by fiat within projects is strictly worse than having the PTL do it. I think the TC's role is to offer guidance in the first instance, and if necessary say to a project "if you can't find a way to productively work together like adults, we're going to kick you out of OpenStack". I don't expect the latter power to ever be needed.


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