On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 8:40 AM, Doug Hellmann <d...@doughellmann.com> wrote:
> On Sep 22, 2014, at 8:05 PM, Devananda van der Veen <devananda....@gmail.com> 
> wrote:
>> On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Doug Hellmann <d...@doughellmann.com> wrote:
>>> On Sep 22, 2014, at 5:10 PM, Devananda van der Veen 
>>> <devananda....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> One of the primary effects of integration, as far as the release
>>>> process is concerned, is being allowed to co-gate with other
>>>> integrated projects, and having those projects accept your changes
>>>> (integrate back with the other project). That shouldn't be a TC
>>> The point of integration is to add the projects to the integrated 
>>> *release*, not just the gate, because the release is the thing we have said 
>>> is OpenStack. Integration was about our overall project identity and 
>>> governance. The testing was a requirement to be accepted, not a goal.
>> We have plenty of things which are clearly part of OpenStack, and yet
>> which are not part of the Integrated Release. Oslo. Devstack. Zuul...
>> As far as I can tell, the only time when "integrated release" equals
>> "the thing we say is OpenStack" is when we're talking about the
>> trademark.
>>> Integration was about our overall project identity and governance. The 
>>> testing was a requirement to be accepted, not a goal.
>> Project identity and governance are presently addressed by the
>> creation of "Programs" and a fully-elected TC.  Integration is not
>> addressing these things at all, as far as I can tell, though I agree
>> that it was initially intended to.
> Good point: I’m mixing terms here. Programs and projects have tended to be 
> incubated at the same time. We’ve insisted that it doesn’t make sense to have 
> a program if there is nothing being produced, and that a project can’t be 
> incubated if the program isn’t also incubated. The fact that we’ve also had 
> 1:1 coupling between programs and projects is unfortunate, but orthogonal to 
> the fact that we have been evaluating the teams as well as the code.
>>> If there is no incubation process, and only a fixed list of projects will 
>>> be in that new layer 1 group, then do contributors to the other projects 
>>> have ATC status and vote for the TC? What is the basis for the TC accepting 
>>> any responsibility for the project, and for the project agreeing to the 
>>> TC’s leadership?
>> I think a good basis for this is simply whether the developers of the
>> project are part of our community, doing things in the way that we do
>> things, and want this to happen. Voting and ATC status is already
>> decoupled [0] from the integrated gate and the integrated release --
>> it's based on the accepted list of Programs [1], which actually has
>> nothing to do with incubation or integration [2].
> I’m concerned that we’re combining changes to the way we decide what we 
> include in the gate with changes to the way we decide which groups of people 
> have a say in how the overall OpenStack project is run.

These things already weren't related.

> One is a technical discussion that has nothing at all to do with governance. 
> The other is entirely about governance.
> If we are no longer incubating *programs*, which are the teams of people who 
> we would like to ensure are involved in OpenStack governance, then how do we 
> make that decision? From a practical standpoint, how do we make a list of 
> eligible voters for a TC election? Today we pull a list of committers from 
> the git history from the projects associated with “official programs", but if 
> we are dropping “official programs” we need some other way to build the list.

I don't think incubation ever applied to programs. Any program listed
is "official" and gets voting rights starting in the election after it
was added to that file.

I also don't think that Monty's proposal suggests that we drop
programs. I think it's suggesting the opposite -- we allow *more*
programs (and the projects associated with them) into the openstack/*
fold without requiring them to join the integrated gating of the
"layer #1" projects.


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