On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 8:40 AM, Doug Hellmann <d...@doughellmann.com> wrote: > > On Sep 22, 2014, at 8:05 PM, Devananda van der Veen <devananda....@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Doug Hellmann <d...@doughellmann.com> wrote: >>> >>> On Sep 22, 2014, at 5:10 PM, Devananda van der Veen >>> <devananda....@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> One of the primary effects of integration, as far as the release >>>> process is concerned, is being allowed to co-gate with other >>>> integrated projects, and having those projects accept your changes >>>> (integrate back with the other project). That shouldn't be a TC >>> >>> The point of integration is to add the projects to the integrated >>> *release*, not just the gate, because the release is the thing we have said >>> is OpenStack. Integration was about our overall project identity and >>> governance. The testing was a requirement to be accepted, not a goal. >> >> We have plenty of things which are clearly part of OpenStack, and yet >> which are not part of the Integrated Release. Oslo. Devstack. Zuul... >> As far as I can tell, the only time when "integrated release" equals >> "the thing we say is OpenStack" is when we're talking about the >> trademark. >> >>> Integration was about our overall project identity and governance. The >>> testing was a requirement to be accepted, not a goal. >> >> Project identity and governance are presently addressed by the >> creation of "Programs" and a fully-elected TC. Integration is not >> addressing these things at all, as far as I can tell, though I agree >> that it was initially intended to. > > Good point: I’m mixing terms here. Programs and projects have tended to be > incubated at the same time. We’ve insisted that it doesn’t make sense to have > a program if there is nothing being produced, and that a project can’t be > incubated if the program isn’t also incubated. The fact that we’ve also had > 1:1 coupling between programs and projects is unfortunate, but orthogonal to > the fact that we have been evaluating the teams as well as the code. > >> >>> If there is no incubation process, and only a fixed list of projects will >>> be in that new layer 1 group, then do contributors to the other projects >>> have ATC status and vote for the TC? What is the basis for the TC accepting >>> any responsibility for the project, and for the project agreeing to the >>> TC’s leadership? >> >> I think a good basis for this is simply whether the developers of the >> project are part of our community, doing things in the way that we do >> things, and want this to happen. Voting and ATC status is already >> decoupled  from the integrated gate and the integrated release -- >> it's based on the accepted list of Programs , which actually has >> nothing to do with incubation or integration . > > I’m concerned that we’re combining changes to the way we decide what we > include in the gate with changes to the way we decide which groups of people > have a say in how the overall OpenStack project is run.
These things already weren't related. > One is a technical discussion that has nothing at all to do with governance. > The other is entirely about governance. > > If we are no longer incubating *programs*, which are the teams of people who > we would like to ensure are involved in OpenStack governance, then how do we > make that decision? From a practical standpoint, how do we make a list of > eligible voters for a TC election? Today we pull a list of committers from > the git history from the projects associated with “official programs", but if > we are dropping “official programs” we need some other way to build the list. I don't think incubation ever applied to programs. Any program listed in http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/governance/tree/reference/programs.yaml is "official" and gets voting rights starting in the election after it was added to that file. I also don't think that Monty's proposal suggests that we drop programs. I think it's suggesting the opposite -- we allow *more* programs (and the projects associated with them) into the openstack/* fold without requiring them to join the integrated gating of the "layer #1" projects. -Devananda _______________________________________________ OpenStack-dev mailing list OpenStackfirstname.lastname@example.org http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev