On Mon, 2006-02-27 at 11:44 -0500, Joseph M. Gaffney wrote: > In support of a forum: > > * Knowing it isn't going anywhere - Now don't get me wrong, I really doubt > suseforums.net and suselinuxsupport.de are going anywhere, but one of the > very big things I like about an official forum is that its here to stay. Its > not going to be sold off, be replaced by advertising, or forgotten about by > the owner. I have recently (and not so recently) experienced this on too > many forums to list here; several of which being major forums for major > F/LOSS software and several being completely unrelated, but the result was > the same. The site was sold, and because of the popularity, became a place > for advertisers to easily get links and prominent google results, or the new > owner really didn't care and was only interested in advertising revenue, and > the site went downhill, etc, etc. Knowing that an official forum exists > means knowing this will never happen to the official forum.
Let's define the problem you are trying to fix. There is a concern that the existing web forums wouldn't maintain their current status with regards to ownership, advertising culture, and commitment? There is certainly a possibility that suselinuxsupport.de, suseforums.net, or one of the other forums could shut down. In fact, the creation of suseforums.net was a determined reaction to that exact premise. As it turned out, we were very wrong in our assumption that suselinuxsupport.de was at serious risk, but the time for that decision is long past. I doubt there is a one of us involved that a one time or another hasn't wished for a chance to live those days again. The truth is, when part of the community (wrongly, unfortunately) perceived a threat, it reacted quickly and decisively to ensure the continuation of the resource. So based with the _possibility_ of a lost resource, and the _reality_ that the community will act to preserve those resources, which do we trust? The possibility or the actual act? I believe we should trust the historical fact over the theoretical possibility. I tend to favor the positive aspects in retrospect. Both communities are thriving and vibrant. Both serve as examples of well run forums with active and educated membership. Both embrace the idea of "community" outside of the limitations of a "technical only" environment. And time heals a lot of wounds... On the other hand, I've wondered if suseforums.net had not been born, would some folks feel as urgent about OpenSUSE forums as they do? But hindsight can only guide our future, and in that regard, the lessons learned from that mistake are being applied today. I'm very sensitive to the division of community the creation of suseforums.net created, and that guides my concern about possible further division of community that OpenSUSE forums might create if not approached carefully and thoughtfully. I've heard [EMAIL PROTECTED] state in no uncertain terms will he allow advertising on his forums, and I share that stance. But this brings us to a new perspective... How could we ensure the existence of the current web based communities? Certainly financial support from Novell would help ensure that. It's not outside the realm of possibility to simply engage in dialog with those who run the forums to ascertain what factors are at play in terms of commitment and financial stability for which the global SUSE community might assist? Extend and embrace... > * openSUSE is the community, and an openSUSE forum shows a more linked > community. - There are people who go on mailing lists, people who go on > newsgroups, people who go on forums, so on, and so on. Sometimes they go on > several of these. The fact is, many new users are very familiar with forums, > and know that if these forums exist, they are there to support them in some > way. Not having an official forum, imho, does not show us to be a contiguous > community, but more of what we seem today - scattered, uncommunicative, and > disinterested in cooperation. I'm not sure one can assume an OpenSUSE forum "shows a more linked community". The Wiki is full of links...is the premise to eliminate those links to create a self-contained environment? Internet users today are quite used to traversing the Internet to find what they are seeking. Could this same "linked community" be enhanced by figuring out new and better ways to use opensuse.org as a central launching/searching point for SUSE information and support? I suggested a Google-like SUSE specific search function in my first post that could be a part of this "linked community". Rarely does "contiguous" in our online presence translate to "single". The idea of a first place to go is a substantial one...but being the only place to go will very likely hurt those communities not hosted in that place. Why can't we explore the idea of embracing what we have to create the first place to go, while still including remote communities as potential destinations for part of that fulfillment? > * openSUSE.org is the known hub for SUSE now - SUSE & openSUSE as a community > has been all over the prominent Linux magazines as of late, and openSUSE.org > is the first place people end up going. Knowing this, and knowing the desire > to get new users involved in more than just downloading or just keeping the > torrent up, openSUSE.org must be the place to grab their attention and > maintain it. The revised main page is a start toward this, but there needs > to be a variety of options for new users to communicate directly on there. > Yes, there is a list of forums now, but people will tend to think "but which > is the one I'm supposed to join", or "which one has the guy who maintains xyz > package", etc, etc. An official forum is a first step - even if a maintainer > stays over at suselinuxsupport.de, by joining the official openSUSE forum, > one of the members of this list (or of the existing forums who is on both), > will be able to guide the new user where they need to go. The fact is, new > users are familiar with forums, and it would be good to be able to get them > right into one. When one says "openSUSE.org must be the place to grab their attention and maintain it", it begins to sound like ownership and control are primary motivating factors. I believe this is would be incompatible with the spirit of Open Source, which encourages everyone's (individual or group) participation in the solution and supports choice. "grab their attention and maintain it" sounds more like the approach of control oriented closed source commercial entities than what we expect from the Linux community. > * The evils of DRM, patents, etc, will have more visibility - I think its > beneficial to say "We can't answer that question here, because it would be > illegal. Read <link> for more information. There are other forums you can > find this information at." I think it will help expose (as titled) the evils > of DRM, patents, HDCP, etc, etc. Good point. We all hate DRM. I'm for anything we can do to suppress it, but surely we don't need an OpenSUSE forum to lead this effort. > Against a Forum: > > * Angering existing forum maintainers - This is the only reason I'd have > against a forum, and I don't believe its a good reason either. I don't > believe they should be angry honestly, because I don't think an attempt at > unifying our community into a cohesive whole could possibly be something to > be against. I don't believe the fear of angering existing forum maintainers should drive a bad global SUSE community decision, but a strong effort to embrace and not antagonize them couldn't hurt. Could it? I doubt a single existing forum maintainer would be against "unifying our community into a cohesive whole". The premise you put forward here is that there is only one path to that unification, and that it involves the creation of OpenSUSE forums, which I believe to be false. There is rarely, if ever, a single solution to a problem or desired goal. If one path preserves what has already been built, and one could threaten it, doesn't it make sense to pursue the first, unless one can come up with justification the existing is flawed beyond repair? > How an official forum would work within the existing community: > > * Act as a central place of discussion - Bugs, packaging problems, wishlist > items, etc, etc all pop up all over the existing forums. If the maintainers > of those forums post on the official forum about the topic, there is only one > place developers, maintainers, wiki guys, etc need to look. Theres no reason > to have to monitor (yes, I know its basically 2 - but there are smaller ones > elsewhere) multiple forums if theres one place for these topics to be > reviewed. Again, there are alternatives to this desired communication that do not involve the creation of OpenSUSE forums. My experience is that a typical developer prefers information come to him/her, rather than them prospecting for it. In that case, the better answer would be to deliver that information to a place a developer currently frequents, in a manner that best presents that information. An existing or new mailing list could serve just as well for a place for maintainers of existing forums to post regarding an issue, and perhaps reduce the "noise" one might encounter on a web forum. > * Another means for direct interaction and discussion - As was seen from this > discussion on the list, theres a number of people out there who are very > influential within the community, and will post to forums, but have little or > no interest in ever being a part of a mailing list. Since we've obviously > had various areas of breakdown in communication, this will provide another > (while not perfect, it is quite visible) means of interaction. Discussions > on the list which continue on the forums, and vice-versa, will allow messages > to be easily forwarded to and from the list and the forums. Again, not a > perfect solution, but quite better than what there is now. There is > definitely a feeling among users not on the list that there is a small group > deciding the who/what/when/where/why of openSUSE, and this could be a start > to bridging that gap. But does "another means for direct interaction and discussion" address the issue? We have paths we could have used for that today; and didn't effectively. Mailing list/web forum gateways can be implemented or created. I believe the proper answer to this need is not the creation of another tool, but better to more effectively use those tools we already have. I'm not a mailing list person by preference; I prefer forums. But I am here, and participating. Why? Because I believe it's in the best interest of the global SUSE community, and I'm trying to change my mindset. We need _that_ from all involved. Folks who prefer mailing lists need to spend time in forums, and people who prefer forums need to spend time in mailing lists, at least enough to ensure the better communication we all agree is important. IMO, it's our mindset and behavior we need to change, not our toolset. > * Current moderators and administrators, perhaps along with additional > moderators and administrators, will cooperatively form the staff of the > official forum - Obviously, there are many who are experienced within the > openSUSE community who would make ideal administrators and moderators for an > official forum. As part of their job with the official forum, these existing > moderators and administrators responsibilities should include the management > of the information across their current forum and an official forum. > Cross-posting, forwarding to the list as well, etc. I fully agree that existing community expertise would be very valuable in managing the proposed OpenSUSE forums. > * Single sign-on - The current openSUSE wiki (and thus, Novell site) logins > should be the same as the forums. By doing so, new registrants to an > official openSUSE forum could be told of how they can contribute to the wiki > as well. Many posters will do lengthy tutorials, complicated packaging > information, etc, and all this information is extremely valuable and welcomed > as documentation on the wiki. A single login is truly effective only if it can be implemented across _all_ resources. Unless the plan is to self contain all SUSE related support and information on the Wiki to ensure this, then it would be a step forward, but wouldn't eliminate multiple logins to external sites. By itself, this wouldn't seem to be an important benefit, given the potential negatives the control and contain mechanism could entail. I love the idea of a single login...who wouldn't? > * openSUSE project integration - Forums could be dedicated to specific > projects, and perhaps even limited in posting vs. visibility; ie: a member of > Better Desktop, SUPER, SLICK, JackLab, etc projects can post to their > specific subforum, while all members will be able to view the posts. New > members could then opt to contact project maintainers and get involved in the > various subprojects, allowing these to grow as well. The project > participants can post updates, and start a thread in a general forum outside > of their specific subforum, noting to community members of significant > updates. These types of updates may then be noted on some sort of news > update on the wiki (pending main page redesign). This is outside the box thinking, and I like it. I'd like to see a solid commitment from the specific projects to use such a mechanism before it should be used to justify the creation of OpenSUSE forums. We could create something no one would use...this would require a significant mindset and time management change from these projects. There is significant merit to this if done properly. I've not seen dialog specific to this idea before...did I just miss it? > Well, I think that about sums up my position. Imho, there are scores of > benefits, but I tried to list what I felt to be the major ones here. I'm not > exactly sure what the precise final answer is about what was discussed about > FOSDEM, but if its technical ability, I think we should discuss how the final > decision will be made. If the decision was made, then I believe we should > begin discussing the incorporation of the community, and what should be > happening with official openSUSE forums. At this point, I believe it's time to list the "scores of benefits", and a bit of dirty pool to imply they exist without naming them. Not everyone may have thought of them, or remember them in this context if they have been previously discussed. IMO, the stakes are too high to ignore pertinent points of discussion. Also, since "how" in the case of OpenSUSE forums may seriously impact "whether" I believe the purpose and scope of OpenSUSE forums need some definition before a final decision is made. Great post Joseph. Keith -- Keith Kastorff [EMAIL PROTECTED] --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
