Edward, i beg to differ, the ONLY thing that OCP is good for is a discriminator between to evenly qualified/interviewed candidates.
As someone who does hiring of oracle DBAs and who's been one for 10 years and is OCP, I'm skeptical of those who make a big deal out of being OCP, since that tends to make me believe that they DONT have the experience to back it up. Joe 8 and 8i OCP(but rarely makes it known). Edward Lock wrote: > As someone with 7 years in the HR (Compensation) field, and now in the > IT/ERP field working on my Oracle DBA OCP, I can speak with some > knowledge and experience. > > > > Using the term "Entry Level" on a resume is self-defeating. Most > technical resumes are still screened by by the HR departments first, > before the hiring managers even see them. A good recruiter will be able > to identify whether you have the experience or not. If not, they will > defer a judgment call to the hiring IT manager anyway. That doesn't > mean that you should lie on your resume or deceive anyone. But don't > shoot yourself in the foot before you even get your foot in the door. > > > > Annual salaries for DBAs are, indeed, coming down. If you can get ahold > of a good IT salary survey, make note of not only the average salary, > but the median salary. The median salary is what is commonly used to > benchmark a position--not the average salary. If a formal salary > structure exists at a company, they will normally use the median as the > compa-ratio for the particular paygrade or step. Use common sense, do > your homework, and ask what you're worth; but always leave room for > compromise. > > > > MS Access IS a relational database. However it is a file-server > application, not a client-server database, and was not designed to > handle large transactional systems over a large network. It is designed > for small to medium sized, non mission-critical business environments. > Properly designed, MS Access can serve many purposes, but you will never > find Payroll or Financial systems using MS Access as a db platform or > front-end. MS Access is a great environment for learning databases and > SQL, but it is only a starting point. > > > > Concerning Oracle training--use everything that you can afford. If it's > a career-change, then consider formal Oracle University instructor-led > training classes. If you're already in the field, then self-study may > work. It takes tremendous self-discipline to go the self-study route > with books and CDS or online training. > > > > People who say that the OCP is valueless to the market have never > tested. I say to them--why not test? > > > > Edward Lock > > Sr. Programmer Analyst > > PeopleSoft Project Office, University of Houston System > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Karniotis, Stephen > > *Sent:* Monday, December 31, 2001 12:08 PM > > *To:* Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > *Subject:* RE: Becoming a DBA questions > > > > Good afternoon all: > > I have been holding back on replying to this email because I really > wanted to see what some of the other answers were, especially ones > related > to OCP. Rachel C. will understand as my answers will be very direct. > > 1. What is the average salary range for an entry-level DBA position? Or > a position for someone who is just starting out as a DBA? > >>> As a person that has worked as an Oracle DBA for over 13 > years, the entry-level salary had changed quite dramatically. From the > mid-to late 1990s when starting DBAs could make upwards of 100K to > "REALITY" > when entry-level DBAs should be making no more than 70K. Some may > disagree, > however, I don't think paying high salaries is warranted just > because the > person is a DBA. If they don't have the experience, they don't > deserve the > high monetary return. I would say that 50K is probably on the high > end for > entry-level DBAs. The days of high salaries, similarly the high > consulting > rates, are gone and organizations are now back to reality. I > actually had > someone whom has been out of work for over 6 months refuse a salary > of 65K > as a DBA because he felt it was demeaning for him to accept it. > > 2. In a job resume, should I request an entry-level position or would > that set me up for no phone calls? > >>> I disagree with everyone else regarding not using > "entry-level" on your resume. If you have no experience and you are > looking > to work in a team environment, then using this wording is > acceptable. You > will have to pick the job postings carefully so you don't send > resumes to > organizations that require lots of experience. If you can control that, > then remove "entry-level" and use "junior" instead. > > 3. What are some steps I should take to becoming a DBA w/ the > background that I have (ie. generated databases w/ MS Access)? > >>> Well, MS Access, although people consider this a relational > database, is not. It is a file system that looks like a relational > database. Generating databases in MS Access is nothing like creating > database environments in Oracle. You will honestly need to start from > scratch. The data modeling and application database creating may be > similar > if you followed the normalization rules and generally accepted > guidelines. > I would highly recommend using either Oracle's online learning network, > locating a college/university where they teach Oracle. These do > exist as I > have taught several of these classes in Michigan. I would highly > recommend > contacting the Los Angeles Oracle User's Group for the location of > courses > that are taught. > If you are a devoted person when it comes to online training, then > Oracle online learning is a good start. There are other > organizations that > offer Oracle online training, however, I don't remember their names. > Understand that online training only provides you the bare basics. > It is > not going to give you the exposure and experience needed to be a > true DBA. > a) Recommended training/education in Los Angeles area? > b) Where do you recommend I study & is online training valuable? > > 4. If I could learn Oracle software on my own through Independent study > (books & reference sites), could this be sufficient enough to go > about to > get a job? > >>> OK. This is where I disagree with everyone. The OCP is valueless > to the market. It looks good on the resume because almost no > organization > really understands how it is obtained. As one of the authors for > the first > independent Oracle certification, we designed the certification exam > so that > inexperienced Oracle DBAs COULD NOT pass it. It required > Experience!!! The > Oracle OCP only requires you to take some training, read some books, and > then take the exam. We as experienced DBAs has proven this time > after time > by giving the exam to people that have never been DBAs in their > careers and > have only read some basic Oracle Concepts material. There are a lot > of OCP > DBAs that still don't understand how to get stuff out of Oracle's Data > Dictionary or, for that matter, what is a data dictionary. I see no > value > in the OCP except as a training mechanism. When high school > students can > pass the exam without any experience in Oracle, that should tell you the > value of the exam itself. > > If you can learn portions of the Oracle software on your own, Great! > It will be impossible to learn all of Oracle on your own as the > software is > vast in features and requires different configurations that you may > not have > available to you. In teams of acquiring a job from learning the > software, > you may be able to get a job working in a team of Oracle DBAs. > However, I > will be the first one here to say that I would not hire you as a > stand alone > DBA with just that type of experience. For small shops, maybe, but for > enterprises, no way. > > a) Is the OCP certification necessary? > b) If I took this independent study route instead of formal training > from like a vocational school, would the steps to getting a job (or > even my > OCP certification) be the same? Or would it be more difficult without > formal training? > Independent study mechanisms are typically not structured in > learning capabilities. You need a structured model to properly > learn the > ridiculous things in Oracle, especially with Oracle9i. I would > start with > some basic online training and then move to a semi-formal study program. > From there, either vocational, self-study or a more formal class > would be > beneficial. > 5. What are some valuable books and resources to aid in my training? > >>> Rachel's DBA 101 book would be an excellent choice. Some of the > books by O'Riely and Oracle Press would also help you. Many people have > given excellent suggestions here. There are so many titles that I > would not > beg to know them offhand. > > > 6. How much does Oracle9i cost & would it be worth it to get since i > want to learn? Are there evaluation copies out there that I can get my > hands on? > >>> You can download Oracle9i from www.oracle.com. In terms of > cost, it > varies depending on the number of CPUs and hardware chosen. You can > also > pay for an Oracle Technology Network membership and receive the CDs from > Oracle. Understand that Oracle is not a small software product. The > requirements on your hardware are quite large, so make sure you have > enough > bandwidth in terms of CPU and memory before investing in it. > 7. What are the basic introductory courses/resources/training I could > do to learn or get started in DBA training? > 8. Basically, please list the steps you took to become a DBA (starting > with education/training to job entry) and how you sould suggest I > should go > about starting to learn the fundamentals and then more in depth? > > 7 & 8 are too generic. I would advise contacting your own DBA staff and > asking them this question. I always recommend becoming an Oracle > developer > before becoming a DBA. DBAs that have never developed Oracle-based > software > will never understand the issues related to query optimization, > performance > management, etc. as well as if they had attempted to create an > Oracle-centric application. In many cases, I have seen Oracle DBAs > with no > development experience really screw up an application environment. > > Hope this helps. > > > Thank You > > Stephen P. Karniotis > Technical Alliance Manager > Compuware Corporation > Direct: (248) 865-4350 > Mobile: (248) 408-2918 > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web: www.compuware.com > > > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:15 AM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > Subject: Re: Becoming a DBA questions > > 1. Depends on the company/part of the country and the economy. > 2. State your experience with other databases. Once you get Oracle up > and running at home, add that so they know you have installed it (IMHO > installing on Linux is more impressive as it is very close to unix, but > doing it under windows is better than nothing.) Don't say "looking for > entry-level Oracle dba job" in your mission statement. Say something > like "looking for the opportunity to move my proven database design and > administration skills to a new level with Oracle" or something to that > extent. > 3. If you are good at self-study, Oracle has online learning that > appears pretty reasonable ($99/month or something like that). But get > yourself an Oracle installation to practice on first. > 4. Quite possible to get a job with self-study and training. Passing > your OCP tests will help you get that first job. After that it is nice > to put on your biography when you submit papers to present at the > conferences and user groups. > 6. I'm not in the office today, but I'm sure someone will correct me on > the title, but the two books I think are great are > a. Oracle 8i dba from Oracle Press. I think that is the one that has a > great example of real-life paper to database that explains things very > well. > b. DBA 101 by Rachel Carmichael (and others). I haven't had the chance > to read it yet, but I've got a friend who is an aspiring dba so I've > looked at it and he really loves it. And since I'm a big fan of > Rachel's work, I have to recommend it. > 8. Well, I have been working with databases for many years. But my > first Oracle job was an accident. I was hired for other skills that I > had and the day I started my new manager said "the Oracle DBA is > leaving. You've got a lot of database experience on your resume. Want to > be our Oracle DBA?" The rest is history. My advice to you is to get > Oracle installed and decide on a project that you can use and maintain. > I built a contact manager using an Access front-end. I kept learning > new ways to improve the design and adding new features. Besides coming > in very handy for job searches, it gave me something to discuss when > networking and someone would hear that I worked with databases and ask > what I had worked on recently. I would also recommend looking up a > local user group (start at www.ioug.org and click on the User Group > link). Attend and make friends. These will be your peers and if you're > lucky, you may find someone that will become your mentor. They may not > be in a position to hire you, but they (we) are generally connected to > the pulse of the hiring market and know when someone is looking to > expand or hire a replacement. They can also help you learn new things > and correct any misconceptions you have. At the social portion of the > event (most user groups have conversation time) find someone who has > been a dba for a number of years and ask them if you can talk to them. > Explain what your understanding of something is and then pay attention > as they either correct you or add to your knowledge. Before you know > it, you will be sitting in an interview and the interviewer will ask you > to explain how to use pctfree and you will know from your conversations > and testing. > > Good luck. > > > Stephen Andert > Scottsdale, Arizona > > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/31 2:00 AM >>> > > Questions for a Database Administrator: > 1. What is the average salary range for an entry-level DBA position? Or > a > position for someone who is just starting out as a DBA? > > 2. In a job resume, should I request an entry-level position or would > that > set me up for no phone calls? > > 3. What are some steps I should take to becoming a DBA w/ the > background > that I have (ie. generated databases w/ MS Access)? > > a) Recommended training/education in Los Angeles area? > > b) Where do you recommend I study & is online training valuable? > > 4. If I could learn Oracle software on my own through Independent > study > (books & reference sites), could this be sufficient enough to go about > to get > a job? > > a) Is the OCP certification necessary? > > b) If I took this independent study route instead of formal training > from > like a vocational school, would the steps to getting a job (or even my > OCP > certification) be the same? Or would it be more difficult without > formal > training? > > 5. What are some valuable books and resources to aid in my training? > > > 6. How much does Oracle9i cost & would it be worth it to get since i > want to > learn? Are there evaluation copies out there that I can get my hands > on? > > 7. What are the basic introductory courses/resources/training I could > do to > learn or get started in DBA training? > > 8. Basically, please list the steps you took to become a DBA (starting > with > education/training to job entry) and how you sould suggest I should go > about > starting to learn the fundamentals and then more in depth? > > Thank you!! I really appreciate your help!! > > Please, write to me @ > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > thanks!! > smiles & happy new year 2002!!!! > > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com > -- > Author: Stephen Andert > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com > -- > Author: Karniotis, Stephen > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > -- Joe Testa, Oracle DBA Want to have a good time with a bunch of geeks? Check out: http://www.geekcruises.com/standard_interface/future_cruises.html I'm presenting, when registering drop my name :) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Joe Testa INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
