Kimberly, I'm with you and like you I only took the 8 test because at the time, my employer paid for the tests and gave me a bonus to pass them(like $250/test and $1000K when all done, if i remember correctly), so i had incentive :).
Joe Kimberly Smith wrote: > I for the most part have stayed out of this whole OCP thing cause I too > think its fairly worthless to determine if someone has the skills necessary > to perform the job of DBA. And that is despite the fact I have gone > ahead and gotten my Oracle8 DBA and then upgrading to 8i after. > > That, however, does not make it worthless in getting an interview. I > believe > that we have already pretty much gone over the whole fact that you have > to get by HR before getting an interview and you do need to have something > to > get you that edge. Sometimes all it takes is the OCP. Are managers wrong > to let it influence them? It depends. If they are saying, that person has > an OCP, they must be good, then yes, they are being influenced incorrectly. > However, if they are saying hey, that person took some time to get an OCP. > Lets bring them in for an interview and see if they know what they are > talking > about then I say its a good thing. And so far I have seem more of the later > then the former, at least within the company I work for. > > To me it just shows that I am keeping up to date on my database of choice. > I back it up with my experience. And if that gets me a job over someone > with similar experience but thought it was not worth their time to get the > OCP then sucks to be you. Its not predominate on my resume but bet your > ass that its there. > > Granted, having my company pay for the tests make it an easier decision to > go get them and I am not so sure I would be so willing to do it if the > company > was not willing. If the company is paying, get the damn chip off your > shoulder > and go take the tests. If you are good as you say you are and the tests > as easy as you say they are then what the hell is the big deal. I have yet > to take longer then 15 minutes to do the test (including the survey). > Including the drive and stuff surely you can all spare an hour and increase > the cash inflow at Oracle.... > > This email was not directed specifically at you Joe, just replying to the > whole OCP thing (especially since you seem to have the same thought process > in > this case). OK, back to the wine... > > -----Original Message----- > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 6:10 PM > To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L > > > Edward, i beg to differ, the ONLY thing that OCP is good for is a > discriminator between to evenly qualified/interviewed candidates. > > As someone who does hiring of oracle DBAs and who's been one for 10 > years and is OCP, I'm skeptical of those who make a big deal out of > being OCP, since that tends to make me believe that they DONT have the > experience to back it up. > > Joe > 8 and 8i OCP(but rarely makes it known). > > Edward Lock wrote: > > >>As someone with 7 years in the HR (Compensation) field, and now in the >>IT/ERP field working on my Oracle DBA OCP, I can speak with some >>knowledge and experience. >> >> >> >>Using the term "Entry Level" on a resume is self-defeating. Most >>technical resumes are still screened by by the HR departments first, >>before the hiring managers even see them. A good recruiter will be able >>to identify whether you have the experience or not. If not, they will >>defer a judgment call to the hiring IT manager anyway. That doesn't >>mean that you should lie on your resume or deceive anyone. But don't >>shoot yourself in the foot before you even get your foot in the door. >> >> >> >>Annual salaries for DBAs are, indeed, coming down. If you can get ahold >>of a good IT salary survey, make note of not only the average salary, >>but the median salary. The median salary is what is commonly used to >>benchmark a position--not the average salary. If a formal salary >>structure exists at a company, they will normally use the median as the >>compa-ratio for the particular paygrade or step. Use common sense, do >>your homework, and ask what you're worth; but always leave room for >>compromise. >> >> >> >>MS Access IS a relational database. However it is a file-server >>application, not a client-server database, and was not designed to >>handle large transactional systems over a large network. It is designed >>for small to medium sized, non mission-critical business environments. >>Properly designed, MS Access can serve many purposes, but you will never >>find Payroll or Financial systems using MS Access as a db platform or >>front-end. MS Access is a great environment for learning databases and >>SQL, but it is only a starting point. >> >> >> >>Concerning Oracle training--use everything that you can afford. If it's >>a career-change, then consider formal Oracle University instructor-led >>training classes. If you're already in the field, then self-study may >>work. It takes tremendous self-discipline to go the self-study route >>with books and CDS or online training. >> >> >> >>People who say that the OCP is valueless to the market have never >>tested. I say to them--why not test? >> >> >> >>Edward Lock >> >>Sr. Programmer Analyst >> >>PeopleSoft Project Office, University of Houston System >> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> *From:* Karniotis, Stephen >> >> *Sent:* Monday, December 31, 2001 12:08 PM >> >> *To:* Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L >> >> *Subject:* RE: Becoming a DBA questions >> >> >> >> Good afternoon all: >> >> I have been holding back on replying to this email because I really >> wanted to see what some of the other answers were, especially ones >> related >> to OCP. Rachel C. will understand as my answers will be very direct. >> >> 1. What is the average salary range for an entry-level DBA position? >> > Or > >> a position for someone who is just starting out as a DBA? >> >>> As a person that has worked as an Oracle DBA for over 13 >> years, the entry-level salary had changed quite dramatically. From >> > the > >> mid-to late 1990s when starting DBAs could make upwards of 100K to >> "REALITY" >> when entry-level DBAs should be making no more than 70K. Some may >> disagree, >> however, I don't think paying high salaries is warranted just >> because the >> person is a DBA. If they don't have the experience, they don't >> deserve the >> high monetary return. I would say that 50K is probably on the high >> end for >> entry-level DBAs. The days of high salaries, similarly the high >> consulting >> rates, are gone and organizations are now back to reality. I >> actually had >> someone whom has been out of work for over 6 months refuse a salary >> of 65K >> as a DBA because he felt it was demeaning for him to accept it. >> >> 2. In a job resume, should I request an entry-level position or would >> that set me up for no phone calls? >> >>> I disagree with everyone else regarding not using >> "entry-level" on your resume. If you have no experience and you are >> looking >> to work in a team environment, then using this wording is >> acceptable. You >> will have to pick the job postings carefully so you don't send >> resumes to >> organizations that require lots of experience. If you can control >> > that, > >> then remove "entry-level" and use "junior" instead. >> >> 3. What are some steps I should take to becoming a DBA w/ the >> background that I have (ie. generated databases w/ MS Access)? >> >>> Well, MS Access, although people consider this a relational >> database, is not. It is a file system that looks like a relational >> database. Generating databases in MS Access is nothing like creating >> database environments in Oracle. You will honestly need to start from >> scratch. The data modeling and application database creating may be >> similar >> if you followed the normalization rules and generally accepted >> guidelines. >> I would highly recommend using either Oracle's online learning >> > network, > >> locating a college/university where they teach Oracle. These do >> exist as I >> have taught several of these classes in Michigan. I would highly >> recommend >> contacting the Los Angeles Oracle User's Group for the location of >> courses >> that are taught. >> If you are a devoted person when it comes to online training, then >> Oracle online learning is a good start. There are other >> organizations that >> offer Oracle online training, however, I don't remember their names. >> Understand that online training only provides you the bare basics. >> It is >> not going to give you the exposure and experience needed to be a >> true DBA. >> a) Recommended training/education in Los Angeles area? >> b) Where do you recommend I study & is online training valuable? >> >> 4. If I could learn Oracle software on my own through Independent >> > study > >> (books & reference sites), could this be sufficient enough to go >> about to >> get a job? >> >>> OK. This is where I disagree with everyone. The OCP is >> > valueless > >> to the market. It looks good on the resume because almost no >> organization >> really understands how it is obtained. As one of the authors for >> the first >> independent Oracle certification, we designed the certification exam >> so that >> inexperienced Oracle DBAs COULD NOT pass it. It required >> Experience!!! The >> Oracle OCP only requires you to take some training, read some books, >> > and > >> then take the exam. We as experienced DBAs has proven this time >> after time >> by giving the exam to people that have never been DBAs in their >> careers and >> have only read some basic Oracle Concepts material. There are a lot >> of OCP >> DBAs that still don't understand how to get stuff out of Oracle's Data >> Dictionary or, for that matter, what is a data dictionary. I see no >> value >> in the OCP except as a training mechanism. When high school >> students can >> pass the exam without any experience in Oracle, that should tell you >> > the > >> value of the exam itself. >> >> If you can learn portions of the Oracle software on your own, Great! >> It will be impossible to learn all of Oracle on your own as the >> software is >> vast in features and requires different configurations that you may >> not have >> available to you. In teams of acquiring a job from learning the >> software, >> you may be able to get a job working in a team of Oracle DBAs. >> However, I >> will be the first one here to say that I would not hire you as a >> stand alone >> DBA with just that type of experience. For small shops, maybe, but >> > for > >> enterprises, no way. >> >> a) Is the OCP certification necessary? >> b) If I took this independent study route instead of formal training >> from like a vocational school, would the steps to getting a job (or >> even my >> OCP certification) be the same? Or would it be more difficult without >> formal training? >> Independent study mechanisms are typically not structured in >> learning capabilities. You need a structured model to properly >> learn the >> ridiculous things in Oracle, especially with Oracle9i. I would >> start with >> some basic online training and then move to a semi-formal study >> > program. > >> From there, either vocational, self-study or a more formal class >> would be >> beneficial. >> 5. What are some valuable books and resources to aid in my training? >> >>> Rachel's DBA 101 book would be an excellent choice. Some of the >> books by O'Riely and Oracle Press would also help you. Many people >> > have > >> given excellent suggestions here. There are so many titles that I >> would not >> beg to know them offhand. >> >> >> 6. How much does Oracle9i cost & would it be worth it to get since i >> want to learn? Are there evaluation copies out there that I can get >> > my > >> hands on? >> >>> You can download Oracle9i from www.oracle.com. In terms of >> cost, it >> varies depending on the number of CPUs and hardware chosen. You can >> also >> pay for an Oracle Technology Network membership and receive the CDs >> > from > >> Oracle. Understand that Oracle is not a small software product. The >> requirements on your hardware are quite large, so make sure you have >> enough >> bandwidth in terms of CPU and memory before investing in it. >> 7. What are the basic introductory courses/resources/training I could >> do to learn or get started in DBA training? >> 8. Basically, please list the steps you took to become a DBA (starting >> with education/training to job entry) and how you sould suggest I >> should go >> about starting to learn the fundamentals and then more in depth? >> >> 7 & 8 are too generic. I would advise contacting your own DBA staff >> > and > >> asking them this question. I always recommend becoming an Oracle >> developer >> before becoming a DBA. DBAs that have never developed Oracle-based >> software >> will never understand the issues related to query optimization, >> performance >> management, etc. as well as if they had attempted to create an >> Oracle-centric application. In many cases, I have seen Oracle DBAs >> with no >> development experience really screw up an application environment. >> >> Hope this helps. >> >> >> Thank You >> >> Stephen P. Karniotis >> Technical Alliance Manager >> Compuware Corporation >> Direct: (248) 865-4350 >> Mobile: (248) 408-2918 >> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> Web: www.compuware.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 11:15 AM >> To: Multiple recipients of list ORACLE-L >> Subject: Re: Becoming a DBA questions >> >> 1. Depends on the company/part of the country and the economy. >> 2. State your experience with other databases. Once you get Oracle up >> and running at home, add that so they know you have installed it (IMHO >> installing on Linux is more impressive as it is very close to unix, >> > but > >> doing it under windows is better than nothing.) Don't say "looking for >> entry-level Oracle dba job" in your mission statement. Say something >> like "looking for the opportunity to move my proven database design >> > and > >> administration skills to a new level with Oracle" or something to that >> extent. >> 3. If you are good at self-study, Oracle has online learning that >> appears pretty reasonable ($99/month or something like that). But get >> yourself an Oracle installation to practice on first. >> 4. Quite possible to get a job with self-study and training. Passing >> your OCP tests will help you get that first job. After that it is >> > nice > >> to put on your biography when you submit papers to present at the >> conferences and user groups. >> 6. I'm not in the office today, but I'm sure someone will correct me >> > on > >> the title, but the two books I think are great are >> a. Oracle 8i dba from Oracle Press. I think that is the one that has a >> great example of real-life paper to database that explains things very >> well. >> b. DBA 101 by Rachel Carmichael (and others). I haven't had the chance >> to read it yet, but I've got a friend who is an aspiring dba so I've >> looked at it and he really loves it. And since I'm a big fan of >> Rachel's work, I have to recommend it. >> 8. Well, I have been working with databases for many years. But my >> first Oracle job was an accident. I was hired for other skills that I >> had and the day I started my new manager said "the Oracle DBA is >> leaving. You've got a lot of database experience on your resume. Want >> > to > >> be our Oracle DBA?" The rest is history. My advice to you is to get >> Oracle installed and decide on a project that you can use and >> > maintain. > >> I built a contact manager using an Access front-end. I kept learning >> new ways to improve the design and adding new features. Besides >> > coming > >> in very handy for job searches, it gave me something to discuss when >> networking and someone would hear that I worked with databases and ask >> what I had worked on recently. I would also recommend looking up a >> local user group (start at www.ioug.org and click on the User Group >> link). Attend and make friends. These will be your peers and if you're >> lucky, you may find someone that will become your mentor. They may >> > not > >> be in a position to hire you, but they (we) are generally connected to >> the pulse of the hiring market and know when someone is looking to >> expand or hire a replacement. They can also help you learn new things >> and correct any misconceptions you have. At the social portion of the >> event (most user groups have conversation time) find someone who has >> been a dba for a number of years and ask them if you can talk to them. >> Explain what your understanding of something is and then pay attention >> as they either correct you or add to your knowledge. Before you know >> it, you will be sitting in an interview and the interviewer will ask >> > you > >> to explain how to use pctfree and you will know from your >> > conversations > >> and testing. >> >> Good luck. >> >> >> Stephen Andert >> Scottsdale, Arizona >> >> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/31 2:00 AM >>> >> > Questions for a Database Administrator: >> 1. What is the average salary range for an entry-level DBA position? >> > Or > >> a >> position for someone who is just starting out as a DBA? >> >> 2. In a job resume, should I request an entry-level position or would >> that >> set me up for no phone calls? >> >> 3. What are some steps I should take to becoming a DBA w/ the >> background >> that I have (ie. generated databases w/ MS Access)? >> >> a) Recommended training/education in Los Angeles area? >> >> b) Where do you recommend I study & is online training valuable? >> >> 4. If I could learn Oracle software on my own through Independent >> study >> (books & reference sites), could this be sufficient enough to go about >> to get >> a job? >> >> a) Is the OCP certification necessary? >> >> b) If I took this independent study route instead of formal training >> from >> like a vocational school, would the steps to getting a job (or even my >> OCP >> certification) be the same? Or would it be more difficult without >> formal >> training? >> >> 5. What are some valuable books and resources to aid in my training? >> >> >> 6. How much does Oracle9i cost & would it be worth it to get since i >> want to >> learn? Are there evaluation copies out there that I can get my hands >> on? >> >> 7. What are the basic introductory courses/resources/training I could >> do to >> learn or get started in DBA training? >> >> 8. Basically, please list the steps you took to become a DBA >> > (starting > >> with >> education/training to job entry) and how you sould suggest I should go >> about >> starting to learn the fundamentals and then more in depth? >> >> Thank you!! I really appreciate your help!! >> >> Please, write to me @ >> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> thanks!! >> smiles & happy new year 2002!!!! >> >> >> -- >> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com >> -- >> Author: Stephen Andert >> INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 >> San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message >> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in >> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L >> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may >> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). >> -- >> Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com >> -- >> Author: Karniotis, Stephen >> INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 >> San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message >> to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in >> the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L >> (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may >> also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). >> >> > > > -- > Joe Testa, Oracle DBA > Want to have a good time with a bunch of geeks? Check out: > http://www.geekcruises.com/standard_interface/future_cruises.html > I'm presenting, when registering drop my name :) > > > > > > > -- > Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com > -- > Author: Joe Testa > INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 > San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message > to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in > the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L > (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may > also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing). > > -- Joe Testa, Oracle DBA Want to have a good time with a bunch of geeks? Check out: http://www.geekcruises.com/standard_interface/future_cruises.html I'm presenting, when registering drop my name :) -- Please see the official ORACLE-L FAQ: http://www.orafaq.com -- Author: Joe Testa INET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fat City Network Services -- (858) 538-5051 FAX: (858) 538-5051 San Diego, California -- Public Internet access / Mailing Lists -------------------------------------------------------------------- To REMOVE yourself from this mailing list, send an E-Mail message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (note EXACT spelling of 'ListGuru') and in the message BODY, include a line containing: UNSUB ORACLE-L (or the name of mailing list you want to be removed from). You may also send the HELP command for other information (like subscribing).
