Marcus wrote:
> Kittim in
> pNah are almost certainly Romans, but the same cannot
> be said of pHab...
The proto-SS terror tactic that doesn't even spare the unborn is by no means
Greek, but typical Roman suppression's tactics, introduced first by Scipio
in the Punic War.
> The debate over standards is inherently weak as is
> demonstrated by the debate over whether similar practice can be found
among
> Greeks as well as Romans ...
The debate isn't weak, but the support for an assumed Greek practice. Once
you have realized that Rome was utmost busy to get back the standards of
Carrhae, you would neither equate 'standards' and 'weapons of war' nor
underestimate the argument.
> In any case, as I say I do think that the Kittim in pHab are Romans - the
> existing power as you rightly point out - I just apply caution in adopting
this
> identification since I can find no cast-iron reasons for why the
identification.
The SS-tactic - again...
> Reading a lot of the early material reinforces my own opinion of how weak
this
> argument is - Dupont-Sommer is a prime example. For > him 'standards' are
everything!
As is has been for the Romans.
> Since Delos is a Greek island could 'ships from Kittim(=Greece)' be a
> more accurate translation? Farfetched perhaps, but it does offer a
possible
> solution to the question why Kittim 'jumps nations' in the Heb. Bible.
Very farfetched, for it presupposes internal knowledge of a military
itinerary. But where is the jump?
> > As for the Kittim of 1QM and 4QpIsaA, etc., contrary
> > to common thinking I don't think those are Seleucids; I
> > think those are Romans too;
Agree.
> I think we are coming at this question from opposite ends. My own
inclination
> has been to hang on to the Greek identification (as the one more
biblically
> based) for as long as possible, perhaps as a reaction against the
incautious
> reading Kittim=Romans.
No - it is merely an overhasty focus on A-IV tradition in col. 1. The tactis
in 1QM is late Graeco-Parthian to battle a Roman army successfully: To
launch the specialists, gaps become opened (lock shields tactics) instead of
remaining open during the approach (legion tactics), or their development
over the wings (phalanx tactics). And the mass of horsearchers as part of
the wing cavalry (supporting the specialists) presupposes knowledge of
tactical success after its introduction (army reform) by the Parthians in
~110 BC (cf. the good chance for cataphracts as the srk/agema of the heavy
cavalry), e.g. battles like Carrhae, Drymos or alike. Etc., etc.,...
> Again I deal with this question in my article. Suffice to say others have
found
> similar evidence of similar Seleucid activities. This leads me to the
conclusion
> that this was by no means an exclusive ritual.
Pls give us some references.
> > On the CD 'head of the kings of Yavan' reference, while
> > I think that is Pompey, I don't think the CD expression
> > requires the 'head' to be of Yavan personally, only in
> > command of them.
Agree.
> > Although it is conjectural, I
> > imagine 'Yavan' meant 'Greeks' and 'Kittim' (in the world
> > of these texts) may be a sobriquet for 'Romans' without
> > necessary genealogical connection, although Romans
> > themselves (by some other eponym) and Greeks probably
> > would have been regarded in some family tree affinity
I'd imagine Asia minor behind the term 'Yavan'. The refs are already
present.
I guess if these Jews had thought in Greek or in oriental categories.
> I would simply ask this: how likely is it that
> the pesherist would refer to Pompey in terms of his subject armies and not
his
> own military force? I'm afraid I simply don't buy it!
I recall that the outcome was a 'Syrian result'. However, you have to buy,
then, another poison: Q. Labienus' Yavan campaign (in combination with
Pacorus Syrian campaign).
Nothing new in the East...
Dierk
For private reply, e-mail to "Dierk van den Berg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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