I love this idea of championing freedom shock. If you have an issue with great complexity, diversity, passion and urgency, Open Space around it. And it allows others to get on with the work at hand, while the shocked participants find support and understanding from each other. What they might take away from an experience like that is that talking about futility is in itself a hopeful step. I mean seriously, if I was in that group I might just ask myself at the end of it, what did we just do? And the answer might be, we took responsibility for convening a discussion group on our fear that nothing was going to change. That is change in itself, seems to me. Thanks, Mick, and thanks for contributing the stories. Chris --- CHRIS CORRIGAN Bowen Island, BC, Canada http://www.chriscorrigan.com [email protected] (604) 947-9236 -----Original Message----- From: OSLIST [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mike Copeland Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 7:27 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Letting go; easy to say... G'day Chris today you wrote: Once when I was facilitating a group of First Nations people from all over British Columbia and we were doing action planning, I invited the group to "come forward to the centre of the circle, grab five dots and indicate where your passion lay." Two older women from the Carrier Nation started laughing. In the Carrier language "do't" (which sounds very much like "dot") is a very rude term for female anatomy. They had a moment of thrilling confusion until they figured out what I REALLY meant! Chris Man you have some great stories; this is priceless!!! You could've had some real super passionate people on your hands there! My workmates and I had an Open Space workshop last week facilitated by Daniel Lebel. Did we get passionate when it came to convergence. Freedom shock divided the group. Those in shock were not going to give up their total belief that they had no power to effect change except through the usual closed space channels. Others of us, and I was a participant, were exasperated with their lack of responsiveness. Eventually after a bit of hollering someone announced they were going to champion an issue. The champions grabbed their issues and convened meetings, the rest formed a circle and championed freedom shock, and the whole futility of the exercise because nothing was going to change! It was a sobering experience for me, and a good reminder of the amazing transformation that is required of our organisations and systems if they are ever going to be open space! I was reading some old university notes about soft systems methodology. Heck open space can do in three days what an encyclopedic dissertation and months of meetings could never do. The key seems to be this letting go thing. Which while easily said is probably the greatest lesson I have learned in my short life. Not to say I have "arrived" yet. It took some pretty major life threatening convincing before I could accept life on life's terms and then let my version of reality go. It's a daily journey. Write now I'm letting go the fear of writing my personal thoughts in a public domain. I'd be keen to hear what the rest of you think? All the Best Mike Copeland --- CHRIS CORRIGAN Bowen Island, BC, Canada http://www.chriscorrigan.com [email protected] (604) 947-9236 -----Original Message----- From: OSLIST [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lucy Geão Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 7:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Res: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...)
Joelle, artur (and all too) do not be worried, the word "paper" has differents meanings as artur showed but "role" is used so frequently that I am almost sure that the brazilian people attending the event understood the confusion between what the translator did and what you was really intending to say and , possibly, smiled. lucy -------Mensagem original------- De: OSLIST <mailto:[email protected]> Data: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 19:48:30 Para: [email protected] Assunto: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...) Hi Joelle and Lucy (and all) Joelle wrote: >Artur-- (...) >I was quite interested to observe that the Brazilians listed only roles of >family and relationships. I suspect, that this is because family and >interpersonal relationships are far more important in Latin cultures. But >I also wonder >if the word which was used to translate "roles," (I think something like >"rolas," ) might have a more-specific meaning in Portugese, so the >response might >have been shaped by the word that was used. What do you think? And Lucy replyied: >joelle, the translation is really an important detail in any place of the >word. really the bad translation of "role" transformed a word that means >"paper" or "part of" (he plays the part of the monster) into a swearword >used for some cheap persons speaking about penis. complicated, you see? This is really an amazing story about languages and translations. May I use that story for other purposes and quote you both? I would like to add some comments: 1. I have decided to wait for an eventual answer from Lucy, as I had the idea that "rola" could have in Brasil this slang meaning, but I was not sure. "rola" is indeed a white bird (turtle-dove, says my Dictionary) that is used in slang Portugues to refer only to "female brests", but I was almost sure of once hearing it in Brasil with the meaning Lucy clarified. 2. This contains other lessons. Translators are often not very good, especially if they don't know the subject they are trying to traslate. And I have noticed often that, in such cases, they don't say "I can't translate that". They will chose - especially in oral translation" - a "similar word". In this case with devastating effects... I suposed that the Brasilians, confused, tryed to give an answer... as they could... So, I suspect your conclusion, was not necessarily correct, Joelle. 3. But even if the translator knows the meaning of the word he/she can often do a "correct word-translation" that is still useless. "Role" translates into Portugues, as Lucy pointed out, as "papél", plural "papéis" (the Spanish "papeles"). The point is that "papel" also means "paper", like in "a sheet of paper". I wonder what the Brasilians would answer to this possibility, namely if they were low class and never heard of "papeis" in this sense.... 4. Contextual translation, done by someone that knows the subject, would understant the what should be translated was not "roles" but "social roles" giving "papéis sociais" that can not, of course, be confused with sheets of papers. 5. Now imagine what would happen if this was a conversation between an Arab and a Juif mediated by an American President, with the help of a translator without an "absolutely perfect knowledge" of BOTH languages. Terrible, I suspect. 6. My conclusion - if you era "broadcasting" or publishing a book, good traslations can be useful (like in the Brasilian translation of the User's Guide).. But to mediate "conversations", translations are NEVER a replacement for bi-linguism. 7: I think that people giving training in a foreign language in a different country, when that training must be mediated by a translater, must always ask very seriously what are the qualifications of the translator in the subject of the training and not only the "translation qualification" in other subjects. 8. I am sure that I could do a good translation of English to Portuguese in subjects like management or information systems. But I am affraid to confess, Joelle, that I would be unable to transslate one of your poems, as I don't understand poetry in English. And I could very well think that a turtle-dove was a turtle of some special species... 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