Dear Mike, thank for letting go "your fears of of writing your personal thoughts in a public domain". You've encouraged me to let go my fear of writing to a group of people, all so much more experienced in open space than me - and furthermore - to write in a foreign language.
I am following the exchange on the list for about six weeks now and I have received so many enriching thoughts of you writers. But the best is this valuing, honoring energy I perceive. And I want to thank you all for sharing this with me. "This letting go thing" really seems to be it. I decided to stop fighting some months ago (what I did the last 36 years in one way or the other). And I started to believe that the "right" way is the easy one. (On the other hand the easy way sometimes still seems to be the hardest for me - because it demands to let go). So, not that I am totally convinced by now but I do trust more and more every day. I am looking forward to having more of this energy in Svenmark and to meet all who are coming there, my best wishes for your journey, Marei OSLIST <[email protected]> schrieb am 08.08.03 04:29:06: G'day Chris today you wrote: Once when I was facilitating a group of First Nations people from all over British Columbia and we were doing action planning, I invited the group to "come forward to the centre of the circle, grab five dots and indicate where your passion lay." Two older women from the Carrier Nation started laughing. In the Carrier language "do't" (which sounds very much like "dot") is a very rude term for female anatomy. They had a moment of thrilling confusion until they figured out what I REALLY meant! Chris Man you have some great stories; this is priceless!!! You could've had some real super passionate people on your hands there! My workmates and I had an Open Space workshop last week facilitated by Daniel Lebel. Did we get passionate when it came to convergence. Freedom shock divided the group. Those in shock were not going to give up their total belief that they had no power to effect change except through the usual closed space channels. Others of us, and I was a participant, were exasperated with their lack of responsiveness. Eventually after a bit of hollering someone announced they were going to champion an issue. The champions grabbed their issues and convened meetings, the rest formed a circle and championed freedom shock, and the whole futility of the exercise because nothing was going to change! It was a sobering experience for me, and a good reminder of the amazing transformation that is required of our organisations and systems if they are ever going to be open space! I was reading some old university notes about soft systems methodology. Heck open space can do in three days what an encyclopedic dissertation and months of meetings could never do. The key seems to be this letting go thing. Which while easily said is probably the greatest lesson I have learned in my short life. Not to say I have "arrived" yet. It took some pretty major life threatening convincing before I could accept life on life's terms and then let my version of reality go. It's a daily journey. Write now of writing my personal thoughts in a public domain. I'd be keen to hear what the rest of you think? All the BestMike Copeland --- CHRIS CORRIGAN Bowen Island, BC, Canada http://www.chriscorrigan.com [email protected] (604) 947-9236 -----Original Message----- From: OSLIST [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lucy Geão Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 7:43 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Res: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...) Joelle, artur (and all too) do not be worried, the word "paper" has differents meanings as artur showed but "role" is used so frequently that I am almost sure that the brazilian people attending the event understood the confusion between what the translator did and what you was really intending to say and , possibly, smiled. lucy -------Mensagem original------- De: OSLIST Data: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 19:48:30 Para: [email protected] Assunto: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...) Hi Joelle and Lucy (and all) Joelle wrote: >Artur-- (...) >I was quite interested to observe that the Brazilians listed only roles of >family and relationships. I suspect, that this is because family and >interpersonal relationships are far more important in Latin cultures. But >I also wonder >if the word which was used to translate "roles," (I think something like >"rolas," ) might have a more-specific meaning in Portugese, so the >response might >have been shaped by the word that was used. What do you think? And Lucy replyied: >joelle, the translation is really an important detail in any place of the >word. really the bad translation of "role" transformed a word that means >"paper" or "part of" (he plays the part of the monster) into a swearword >used for some cheap persons speaking about penis. complicated, you see? This is really an amazing story about languages and translations. May I use that story for other purposes and quote you both? I would like to add some comments: 1. I have decided to wait for an eventual answer from Lucy, as I had the idea that "rola" could have in Brasil this slang meaning, but I was not sure. "rola" is indeed a white bird (turtle-dove, says my Dictionary) that is used in slang Portugues to refer only to "female brests", but I was almost sure of once hearing it in Brasil with the meaning Lucy clarified. 2. This contains other lessons. Translators are often not very good, especially if they don't know the subject they are trying to traslate. And I have noticed often that, in such cases, they don't say "I can't translate that". They will chose - especially in oral translation" - a "similar word". In this case with devastating effects... I suposed that the Brasilians, confused, tryed to give an answer... as they could... So, I suspect your conclusion, was not necessarily correct, Joelle. 3. But even if the translator knows the meaning of the word he/she can often do a "correct word-translation" that is still useless. "Role" translates into Portugues, as Lucy pointed out, as "papél", plural "papéis" (the Spanish "papeles"). The point is that "papel" also means "paper", like in "a sheet of paper". I wonder what the Brasilians would answer to this possibility, namely if they were low class and never heard of "papeis" in this sense.... 4. Contextual translation, done by someone that knows the subject, would understant the what should be translated was not "roles" but "social roles" giving "papéis sociais" that can not, of course, be confused with sheets of papers. 5. Now imagine what would happen if this was a conversation between an Arab and a Juif mediated by an American President, with the help of a translator without an "absolutely perfect knowledge" of BOTH languages. Terrible, I suspect. 6. My conclusion - if you era "broadcasting" or publishing a book, good traslations can be useful (like in the Brasilian translation of the User's Guide).. But to mediate "conversations", translations are NEVER a replacement for bi-linguism. 7: I think that people giving training in a foreign language in a different country, when that training must be mediated by a translater, must always ask very seriously what are the qualifications of the translator in the subject of the training and not only the "translation qualification" in other subjects. 8. I am sure that I could do a good translation of English to Portuguese in subjects like management or information systems. But I am affraid to confess, Joelle, that I would be unable to transslate one of your poems, as I don't understand poetry in English. And I could very well think that a turtle-dove was a turtle of some special species... Regards Artur * * ========================================================== [email protected] ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of [email protected], Visit: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html . ____________________________________________________ IncrediMail - O mundo do correio eletrônico finalmente desenvolveu-se - Clique aqui* * ========================================================== [email protected] ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of [email protected], Visit: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html * * ========================================================== [email protected] ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of [email protected], Visit: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html ----------------------------------------------------------------- Attention: This e-mail (and attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. ----------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________________________ Die sicherste Form der Kommunikation: E-Mails verschluesseln, Spam-Filter, Adressverifizierung, digitale Unterschrift: http://freemail.web.de * * ========================================================== [email protected] ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of [email protected], Visit: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
