Toke, how beautiful - thank you.
Marei "Toke Paludan Møller - InterChange" <[email protected]> schrieb: > Dear Marei. > > > thanks for the honesty about the hardship and art of letting > go.....easy or hard - it is good to start.... > > here I will offer a morning poem fom the lake that I live by. > > > Oh - the letting go > to enter new spaces in me > and with you > who are around > > Oh the letting go > a door to become present > to enter the flow > of more letting go > > Oh the letting go > what a silent show > of life on the go > with more letting go > > Oh to let go > of all the letting go > and just to be > me > > > looking forward to see you at the OSonOs space soon > > best greetings > > - toke > > ******* > > >Dear Mike, > > > >thank for letting go "your fears of of writing your personal > >thoughts in a public domain". You've encouraged me to let go my fear > >of writing to a group of people, all so much more experienced in > >open space than me - and furthermore - to write in a foreign > >language. > > > >I am following the exchange on the list for about six weeks now and > >I have received so many enriching thoughts of you writers. But the > >best is this valuing, honoring energy I perceive. And I want to > >thank you all for sharing this with me. > > > >"This letting go thing" really seems to be it. I decided to stop > >fighting some months ago (what I did the last 36 years in one way or > >the other). And I started to believe that the "right" way is the > >easy one. (On the other hand the easy way sometimes still seems to > >be the hardest for me - because it demands to let go). So, not that > >I am totally convinced by now but I do trust more and more every day. > > > >I am looking forward to having more of this energy in Svenmark and > >to meet all who are coming there, > >my best wishes for your journey, > > > >Marei > > > > > >OSLIST <[email protected]> schrieb am 08.08.03 04:29:06: > > > >G'day Chris today you wrote: Once when I was facilitating a group of > >First Nations people from all over British Columbia and we were > >doing action planning, I invited the group to "come forward to the > >centre of the circle, grab five dots and indicate where your passion > >lay." Two older women from the Carrier Nation started laughing. In > >the Carrier language "do't" (which sounds very much like "dot") is a > >very rude term for female anatomy. They had a moment of thrilling > >confusion until they figured out what I REALLY meant! Chris Man > >you have some great stories; this is priceless!!! You could've had > >some real super passionate people on your hands there! My workmates > >and I had an Open Space workshop last week facilitated by Daniel > >Lebel. Did we get passionate when it came to convergence. Freedom > >shock divided the group. Those in shock were not going to give up > >their total belief that they had no power to effect change except > >through the usual closed space channels. Others of! > > us, and I was a participant, were exasperated with their lack of > >responsiveness. Eventually after a bit of hollering someone > >announced they were going to champion an issue. The champions > >grabbed their issues and convened meetings, the rest formed a > >circle and championed freedom shock, and the whole futility of the > >exercise because nothing was going to change! It was a sobering > >experience for me, and a good reminder of the amazing transformation > >that is required of our organisations and systems if they are ever > >going to be open space! I was reading some old university notes > >about soft systems methodology. Heck open space can do in three > >days what an encyclopedic dissertation and months of meetings could > >never do. The key seems to be this letting go thing. Which while > >easily said is probably the greatest lesson I have learned in my > >short life. Not to say I have "arrived" yet. It took some pretty > >major life threatening convincing before I could accept life on > >life's terms! > > and then let my version of reality go. It's a daily journey. Write no > >w > > of writing my personal thoughts in a public domain. I'd be keen to > >hear what the rest of you think? All the BestMike Copeland > > > > > > > >--- > >CHRIS CORRIGAN > >Bowen Island, BC, Canada > >http://www.chriscorrigan.com > >[email protected] > > > >(604) 947-9236 > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: OSLIST [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Lucy Geão > >Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 7:43 PM > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: Res: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...) > > > > > > > > > >Joelle, artur (and all too) > > > > > > > >do not be worried, the word "paper" has differents meanings as > >artur showed but "role" is used so frequently that I am almost sure > >that the brazilian people attending the event understood the > >confusion between what the translator did and what you was really > >intending to say and , possibly, smiled. > > > > > > > >lucy > > > > > > > >-------Mensagem original------- > > > > > > > >De: OSLIST > > > >Data: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 19:48:30 > > > >Para: [email protected] > > > >Assunto: Languages and Translations (was: Languages in Europe...) > > > > > > > >Hi Joelle and Lucy (and all) > > > > > > > >Joelle wrote: > > > > > > > >>Artur-- (...) > > > >>I was quite interested to observe that the Brazilians listed only roles of > > > >>family and relationships. I suspect, that this is because family and > > > >>interpersonal relationships are far more important in Latin cultures. But > > > >>I also wonder > > > >>if the word which was used to translate "roles," (I think something like > > > >>"rolas," ) might have a more-specific meaning in Portugese, so the > > > >>response might > > > >>have been shaped by the word that was used. What do you think? > > > > > > > >And Lucy replyied: > > > > > > > >>joelle, the translation is really an important detail in any place of the > > > >>word. really the bad translation of "role" transformed a word that means > > > >>"paper" or "part of" (he plays the part of the monster) into a swearword > > > >>used for some cheap persons speaking about penis. complicated, you see? > > > > > > > >This is really an amazing story about languages and translations. May I use > > > >that story for other purposes and quote you both? > > > > > > > >I would like to add some comments: > > > > > > > >1. I have decided to wait for an eventual answer from Lucy, as I had the > > > >idea that "rola" could have in Brasil this slang meaning, but I was not > > > >sure. "rola" is indeed a white bird (turtle-dove, says my Dictionary) that > > > >is used in slang Portugues to refer only to "female brests", but I was > > > >almost sure of once hearing it in Brasil with the meaning Lucy clarified. > > > > > > > >2. This contains other lessons. Translators are often not very good, > > > >especially if they don't know the subject they are trying to traslate. And > > > >I have noticed often that, in such cases, they don't say "I can't translate > > > >that". They will chose - especially in oral translation" - a "similar > > > >word". In this case with devastating effects... I suposed that the > > > >Brasilians, confused, tryed to give an answer... as they could... So, I > > > >suspect your conclusion, was not necessarily correct, Joelle. > > > > > > > >3. But even if the translator knows the meaning of the word he/she can > > > >often do a "correct > > > >word-translation" that is still useless. "Role" translates into Portugues, > > > >as Lucy pointed out, as "papél", plural "papéis" (the Spanish "papeles"). > > > >The point is that "papel" also means "paper", like in "a sheet of paper". I > > > >wonder what the Brasilians would answer to this possibility, namely if they > > > >were low class and never heard of "papeis" in this sense.... > > > > > > > >4. Contextual translation, done by someone that knows the subject, would > > > >understant the what should be translated was not "roles" but "social roles" > > > >giving "papéis sociais" that can not, of course, be confused with sheets of > > > >papers. > > > > > > > >5. Now imagine what would happen if this was a conversation between an Arab > > > >and a Juif mediated by an American President, with the help of a translator > > > >without an "absolutely perfect knowledge" of BOTH languages. Terrible, I > > > >suspect. > > > > > > > >6. My conclusion - if you era "broadcasting" or publishing a book, good > > > >traslations can be useful > > > >(like in the Brasilian translation of the User's Guide).. But to mediate > > > >"conversations", translations are NEVER a replacement for bi-linguism. > > > > > > > >7: I think that people giving training in a foreign language in a different > > > >country, when that training must be mediated by a translater, must always > > > >ask very seriously what are the qualifications of the translator in the > > > >subject of the training and not only the "translation qualification" in > > > >other subjects. > > > > > > > >8. I am sure that I could do a good translation of English to Portuguese in > > > >subjects like management or information systems. But I am affraid to > > > >confess, Joelle, that I would be unable to transslate one of your poems, as > > > >I don't understand poetry in English. And I could very well think that a > > > >turtle-dove was a turtle of some special species... > > > > > > > >Regards > > > > > > > >Artur > > > > > > > >* > > > >* > > > >========================================================== > > > >[email protected] > > > >------------------------------ > > > >To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, > > > >view the archives of [email protected], > > > >Visit: > > > > > > > >http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > > > >. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >____________________________________________________ > > IncrediMail - O mundo do correio eletrônico finalmente > >desenvolveu-se - Clique aqui* * > >========================================================== > >[email protected] ------------------------------ To > >subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of > >[email protected], Visit: > > > >http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html * * > >========================================================== > >[email protected] ------------------------------ To > >subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of > >[email protected], Visit: > > > >http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > >----------------------------------------------------------------- > >Attention: > >This e-mail (and attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. > >----------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________________________________ > >Die sicherste Form der Kommunikation: E-Mails verschluesseln, Spam-Filter, > >Adressverifizierung, digitale Unterschrift: http://freemail.web.de > > > >* > >* > >========================================================== > >[email protected] > >------------------------------ > >To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, > >view the archives of [email protected], > >Visit: > > > >http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > > > -- > "Bone heavy - spirit light - heart even - intention far." > Toke Paludan Møller, InterChange, Dialogue Architects - Learning > Space hosts - by the river at Days like this, http://www.days.dk/ > Gudenåvej 60, Voervadsbro, 8660 Skanderborg, Phone +45 702013 35 - > Mobile +45 2616 6919 http://www.interchange.dk Home office at the > lake - Stengaardsvej 5 A, 8600 Silkeborg, Denmark > > * > * > ========================================================== > [email protected] > ------------------------------ > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, > view the archives of [email protected], > Visit: > > http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html > * * ========================================================== [email protected] ------------------------------ To subscribe, unsubscribe, change your options, view the archives of [email protected], Visit: http://listserv.boisestate.edu/archives/oslist.html
