I agree with the general sentiment, that we have to marry a certain level of equality with recognition of special effort and expertise,
but I don't think open value networks can solve this without extra mechanisms On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 2:08 AM, Tiberius Brastaviceanu < [email protected]> wrote: > I think the goal is to find a system that allows us to live within our > means, while allowing differences in lifestyles. People should be able to > chose their lifestyle and earn it. Yes, solidarity or support mechanisms > are required, but I think meritocratic systems can generate a sense of > fairness and become stable at large scale. > > On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 2:46 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> thanks Tibi, >> >> what are your thoguhts on the sustainability of lavish lifestyles and how >> accessible they are for the whole of humanity ? >> >> Michel >> >> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 12:08 AM, Tiberius Brastaviceanu < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Michel, I think capital will be subjected to p2p because p2p has the >>> biggest lever of power, *innovation*. This is what drives the early >>> manifestations in Sensorica. Corporations will maintain an edge, >>> *production*, until p2p figures out how to to that reliably and >>> efficiently. We have very little experience with it, but I don't see any >>> important barrier. Automation helps our cause. >>> >>> The natural human tendencies to control, accumulate, and live a lavish >>> life will move within open value networks. I see early signs of it. New >>> entrepreneurial skills are required for open value networks, and some >>> individuals who possess them will become essential. It all depends on how >>> well they will be able to negotiate rewards associated with their essential >>> roles within the OVN. >>> There are a lot of people out there that contact me/us and ask to use >>> the NRP and implement the model. Most of them are looking for a software >>> magical solution that can spark and sustain an open venture, until they >>> realize that the NRP is just a tool. I tell people that they need a new set >>> of skills in order to launch a successful peer production operation. These >>> skills are very rare and people who have them will be able to greatly >>> influence these new networks. I am confident that as more and more people >>> acquire these skills the amount of influence these individuals can exert on >>> their networks will diminish, because there are no mechanisms to preserve >>> that power. >>> >>> But I am not worried about capital, as it is organized today, because it >>> is losing its commanding height, innovation. >>> >>> Again today I exchanged with someone from California, a small startup >>> that burned half of a million in grant money to get a minimal viable >>> product out, they failed and they are now knocking on our door. These >>> exchanges are more and more frequent! Their first attitude is to >>> instrumentalize SENSORICA as a crowdsourcing network, while trying to hold >>> on to the value capturing mechanisms. I tell them that they have two >>> choices, go the Uber of innovation way, preserve their IP and later share >>> their equity with private investors, once they reach critical mass, or the >>> SENSORICA way (500K is plenty to get this project in orbit), and share >>> their equity with their peers who co-develop it. They are considering >>> SENSORICA very, very seriously, because the classical close innovation >>> model doesn't work anymore, too slow, they risk their first to market >>> advantage, they set themselves up for slow penetration rates, etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 7:17 PM, Michel Bauwens < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm eager to see Tom's reaction, on how his theoretical analysis and >>>> wishes, are confronted with the reality of labor commons actually emerging, >>>> >>>> but I don't share Tibi's analysis that this is un-problematic, in fact, >>>> what Tibi and Sensororica are doing, how well would be the question, is to >>>> create membranes that 'discipline' extractive capital to the needs of the >>>> commoners; if that is NOT done well, it can also be an extractive mechanism >>>> that allows corporations to profit from the largely free labour donated to >>>> these platforms >>>> >>>> that is as much a struggle as the struggle between labor and capital in >>>> commodity labor, >>>> >>>> Michel >>>> >>>> On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 1:17 AM, Tiberius Brastaviceanu < >>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Thanks Tom for sharing this article. I am going to read it with great >>>>> interest. I copied Alexandre from Ouishare MTL, who has a passion for the >>>>> future of labor. >>>>> >>>>> Here's my first gut reaction to this. >>>>> >>>>> The underlying assumption is the struggle between labor and capital. >>>>> But if our economic system is reconfiguring this relationship is no longer >>>>> the same. >>>>> Peer production networks like www.sensorica.co can be seen as new >>>>> ways of organizing labor, co-managing resources, redistribution of >>>>> benefits, ... All the means of production belong to individuals, are >>>>> co-owned or are under nondominium or commons property regimes, and they >>>>> are >>>>> shared according to some rules. I don't like to think of the network as an >>>>> accumulation of labor, labor potential that serves capital, unless you are >>>>> thinking about centralized crowdsourcing platforms that play the role of >>>>> intermediary between the crowd and corporations. In the case of SENSORICA >>>>> I >>>>> see it as an aggregation of labor, skills, resources, for projects that >>>>> are >>>>> driven by the crowd, for the crowd. >>>>> >>>>> If you bet on platform capitalism and you think that these centralized >>>>> crowdsourcing platforms will rule the world, the uberization of work, then >>>>> labor, as subjected to corporations for production, distribution and >>>>> rewards, then you might want to think of protective measures for labor, >>>>> you >>>>> may want to make it possible for labor to achieve a new equilibrium of >>>>> forces. >>>>> >>>>> If you bet on peer production a la SENSORICA all this opposition >>>>> disappears. >>>>> >>>>> There is a Facebook thread where I mention our observations of capital >>>>> being more and more subjected to peer production rules, from our >>>>> experience >>>>> with servicing corporations. >>>>> >>>>> Some links >>>>> >>>>> Interfaces between open p2p networks and classical institutions >>>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ABmC6YJsszlIPoL-YXU3GF-PLHY0tmQdocBExswh7Lw/edit> >>>>> On redistribution of resources >>>>> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F19rvACy80_0k3p32dI2NReuVkmozRvDJceaQCuf8y0/edit> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 12:53 PM, Michel Bauwens < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> thanks Tom, >>>>>> >>>>>> Michel >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 11:36 PM, Tom Walker <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, Michel. Briefly, a few years ago I wrote a piece called "Time >>>>>>> on the Ledger" that sketches the rudiments of a social accounting >>>>>>> framework >>>>>>> that could be used by a labour commons unionism. It's posted on Scribd: >>>>>>> https://www.scribd.com/doc/44657733/Time-on-the-Ledger-Social-Accounting-for-the-Good-Society >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Michel Bauwens < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Could you be very specific about this Tom, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I work with post-corporate entrepreneurial coalitions and labour >>>>>>>> mutuals , and it would be of interest to me if you could explain the >>>>>>>> practicalities of how this would work ? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> have you looked into contributive accounting systems like >>>>>>>> Sensorica's >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> how does that relate to your ideas, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> for example: >>>>>>>> http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Interfacing_Open_Peer_Production_Organizations_with_Classical_Institutions >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> CheckFrom: Tom Walker <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [P2P-F] Fwd: [NetworkedLabour] Fwd: [Debate-List] (Fwd) >>>>>>>> Radical leisure, less work, more commoning (Eva Swidler) >>>>>>>> To: P2P Foundation mailing list < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> >>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>> < >>>>>>>> canz+bqxmmvc9seh1rf52ghqijirv_6rcouzya_kyjgm+rpd...@mail.gmail.com> >>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hope this article sparks the conversation that needs to take >>>>>>>> place. It >>>>>>>> certainly raises the issues that need to be addressed. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In my view, the next step in thinking about labour, leisure and the >>>>>>>> commons >>>>>>>> is to conceptualize labour power as a common pool resource. Unions >>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>> traditionally bargained for collective terms for individualized work >>>>>>>> contracts, which reinforces the selling time for money paradigm. "A >>>>>>>> fair >>>>>>>> day's work for a fair day's wage." Treating labour power as a >>>>>>>> common pool >>>>>>>> resource, however, would require the development of an entirely >>>>>>>> different, >>>>>>>> social accounting framework in which collective interests of >>>>>>>> security and >>>>>>>> community -- commonalty, to use the Luddites' term -- are >>>>>>>> prioritized. I've >>>>>>>> written a few things on labour power as a common pool resource and >>>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>>> Burkett discussed the concept in Marx and Nature. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >>>>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: >>>>>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Tom Walker (Sandwichman) >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: >>>>>> http://commonstransition.org >>>>>> >>>>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >>>>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>>>>> >>>>>> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: >>>>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>>>>> >>>>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> t!b! <http://www.google.com/profiles/tiberius.brastaviceanu> >>>>> co-founder of SENSORICA <http://www.sensorica.co>: an open value >>>>> network (or open enterprise) >>>>> co-founder of CAKE <http://aces-cake.org/>: consulting for the new >>>>> economy >>>>> founder of Multitude Project <http://multitudeproject.blogspot.ca/>: >>>>> informing the new multitude >>>>> >>>>> Google Profile <https://plus.google.com/117593809719446924575/about> >>>>> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu >>>>> <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000279944184> >>>>> Twitter @TiberiusB <http://twitter.com/TiberiusB> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: >>>> http://commonstransition.org >>>> >>>> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - >>>> http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >>>> >>>> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: >>>> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >>>> >>>> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> t!b! <http://www.google.com/profiles/tiberius.brastaviceanu> >>> co-founder of SENSORICA <http://www.sensorica.co>: an open value >>> network (or open enterprise) >>> co-founder of CAKE <http://aces-cake.org/>: consulting for the new >>> economy >>> founder of Multitude Project <http://multitudeproject.blogspot.ca/>: >>> informing the new multitude >>> >>> Google Profile <https://plus.google.com/117593809719446924575/about> >>> Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu >>> <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000279944184> >>> Twitter @TiberiusB <http://twitter.com/TiberiusB> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: >> http://commonstransition.org >> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> >> <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: >> http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> >> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ >> > > > > -- > t!b! <http://www.google.com/profiles/tiberius.brastaviceanu> > co-founder of SENSORICA <http://www.sensorica.co>: an open value network > (or open enterprise) > co-founder of CAKE <http://aces-cake.org/>: consulting for the new economy > founder of Multitude Project <http://multitudeproject.blogspot.ca/>: > informing the new multitude > > Google Profile <https://plus.google.com/117593809719446924575/about> > Facebook Tiberius Brastaviceanu > <http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000279944184> > Twitter @TiberiusB <http://twitter.com/TiberiusB> > -- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
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