hi bob, there are conflicts about fairness and fair rewards, which I would not call capitalist infighting, since it based on feelings of justice , reciprocity etc..
and then there are conflicts where people want more than the other, and use market dynamics to get it, is that the case in the faircoin community ? Michel On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:38 PM, Bob Haugen <[email protected]> wrote: > I agree that crypto currencies are taking off, and we know people who > have made some money and are now trying to do things with it. > > We also see for example Fair.coop that is able to pay people because > of their successful crypto currency, but it has also engendered a lot > of infighting along totally capitalist principles. So I agree at least > partly with Michael. Not everybody descended into competition, but > enough to make the atmosphere smell of sulfur and brimstone now and > then... > > On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 12:26 PM, Michel Bauwens > <[email protected]> wrote: > > there is a paradox though, > > > > * sovereign money is still going strong > > > > * complementary curriencies exist in spades, but are everywhere really > > marginal > > > > * Crypto currencies have many problematic aspects, but they are > generating > > massive investments in new infrastructures > > > > * we have theories of what money should be, but they are not implemented > ... > > > > in that context, taking something that seems to take root, but > transforming > > it to broader egaliterian interests, seems a good strategy > > > > On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:17 PM, Michael Linton < > [email protected]> > > wrote: > >> > >> There's much good thinking here, but thinking still inside the old > >> familiar box of asset, control, property, distribution .... > >> > >> So their ideas are still firmly embedded in systems of rivalrous > >> competition. > >> > >> The ends they project can be much more easily achieved by other means. A > >> few days ago on a thread about "weaponized" currencies, I wrote > >> > >>> > >>> The Rivalrous and the Anti-Rivalrous | Deep Code Experiment: Episode > 2 - > >>> Jordan Greenhall on a roll > >>> > >>> STIR (2013) - the key distinction is this. Some moneys are supposed to > >>> be material in nature - and so are scarce, tokens of property. There > are > >>> other moneys that measure, and are not scarce at all. Currencies > that are > >>> based on scarcity are de facto competitive - pointed sticks at the > core. > >>> > >>> So the new crypto-currencies are most generally weaponized, and that's > no > >>> country for old men like me. My interest is in the dmz of money. > >>> > >> > >> From where they look, this is all they are going to see. But it's not > all > >> there is. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 3:51 AM, Bob Haugen <[email protected]> > wrote: > >>> > >>> I'd like to see a real life somewhat-populated with real people > >>> example of how this is supposed to work and what this is supposed to > >>> enable. > >>> > >>> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Michel Bauwens < > [email protected]> > >>> wrote: > >>> > This article from Dick Bryan is the first one bringing it all > together, > >>> > giving clear criterial for p2p/commons oriented crypto developments, > I > >>> > had > >>> > intuited some of them, but was not able to bring it all together yet > as > >>> > this > >>> > author has: > >>> > > >>> > https://medium.com/econaut/what-is-a-crypto-economy-155bdbc4ab1d > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Some criteria to look for (via Dick Bryan): > >>> > > >>> > 1. "Programmable organizations enable production to be organized in a > >>> > way > >>> > that makes social criteria the rationale for production; not a > >>> > constraint on > >>> > it." > >>> > > >>> > [1] > >>> > > >>> > 2. "The rise of ‘networks’ as modes of corporate organization breaks > >>> > down > >>> > the conventional means that differentiate one corporation from > another > >>> > and > >>> > challenges the principle of ‘competition’ as the driver of corporate > >>> > rationale. These are both issues that feature prominently in > >>> > decentralized > >>> > applications." > >>> > > >>> > [2] > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > * 3. Mechanisms, like tokens, that allow surplus value to be retained > >>> > by the > >>> > workers, not capital. > >>> > > >>> > " Changes in the nature of work (precarization, casualization, > >>> > subcontracting, the rise of the gig economy) see workers carrying > >>> > greater > >>> > risks and break down the attachment of work and living standards to > >>> > employment. There is growing interest in alternative ways of > organizing > >>> > work." [3] > >>> > > >>> > 4. "the real potential is cryptocurrencies as units of account: as > >>> > modes of > >>> > measuring economic activity that are conceived differently from those > >>> > intrinsic to fiat money. Fiat money has become tied to conventional > >>> > framings > >>> > of profit and loss, income and expenditure, and a market-centred > >>> > calculus. > >>> > Non-fiat monies have the potential for developing new ways to > calculate > >>> > economic activity; ways that represent different social and economic > >>> > values, > >>> > and measure performance by criteria other than profit. Think about it > >>> > for a > >>> > moment. The unit of account potential signals the importance of the > >>> > crypto > >>> > economy developing ways (not a singular way, but coin-specific ways) > of > >>> > accounting and measuring the activities supported by each token. We > see > >>> > this > >>> > as central to giving tokens a material basis in the crypto economy; > not > >>> > just > >>> > leaving them as speculative stores of value. .... "Exchange is often > >>> > between > >>> > parties of unequal power, so mutual gain cannot be presumed. An > >>> > important > >>> > issue of the crypto economy is how blockchain can and cannot > >>> > countermand > >>> > asymmetrical power in trade. We see blockchain not facilitating > >>> > frictionless > >>> > markets but rather frictionless capital: distributed capital." [4] > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > -- > >>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > >>> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > >>> > > >>> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > >>> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >>> > > >>> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens > ; > >>> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > > > > > > -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
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