ok, good to know On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 9:06 PM, Bob Haugen <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> > wrote: > > there are conflicts about fairness and fair rewards, which I would not > call > > capitalist infighting, since it based on feelings of justice , > reciprocity > > etc.. > > > > and then there are conflicts where people want more than the other, and > use > > market dynamics to get it, > > > > is that the case in the faircoin community ? > > Both cases, I think. This is not true of all or even a majority of the > people. But enuf to make a difference in the atmosphere. > > > Michel > > > > On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 8:38 PM, Bob Haugen <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> I agree that crypto currencies are taking off, and we know people who > >> have made some money and are now trying to do things with it. > >> > >> We also see for example Fair.coop that is able to pay people because > >> of their successful crypto currency, but it has also engendered a lot > >> of infighting along totally capitalist principles. So I agree at least > >> partly with Michael. Not everybody descended into competition, but > >> enough to make the atmosphere smell of sulfur and brimstone now and > >> then... > >> > >> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 12:26 PM, Michel Bauwens > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > there is a paradox though, > >> > > >> > * sovereign money is still going strong > >> > > >> > * complementary curriencies exist in spades, but are everywhere really > >> > marginal > >> > > >> > * Crypto currencies have many problematic aspects, but they are > >> > generating > >> > massive investments in new infrastructures > >> > > >> > * we have theories of what money should be, but they are not > implemented > >> > ... > >> > > >> > in that context, taking something that seems to take root, but > >> > transforming > >> > it to broader egaliterian interests, seems a good strategy > >> > > >> > On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 6:17 PM, Michael Linton > >> > <[email protected]> > >> > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> There's much good thinking here, but thinking still inside the old > >> >> familiar box of asset, control, property, distribution .... > >> >> > >> >> So their ideas are still firmly embedded in systems of rivalrous > >> >> competition. > >> >> > >> >> The ends they project can be much more easily achieved by other > means. > >> >> A > >> >> few days ago on a thread about "weaponized" currencies, I wrote > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >>> The Rivalrous and the Anti-Rivalrous | Deep Code Experiment: > Episode 2 > >> >>> - > >> >>> Jordan Greenhall on a roll > >> >>> > >> >>> STIR (2013) - the key distinction is this. Some moneys are supposed > >> >>> to > >> >>> be material in nature - and so are scarce, tokens of property. > There > >> >>> are > >> >>> other moneys that measure, and are not scarce at all. Currencies > >> >>> that are > >> >>> based on scarcity are de facto competitive - pointed sticks at the > >> >>> core. > >> >>> > >> >>> So the new crypto-currencies are most generally weaponized, and > that's > >> >>> no > >> >>> country for old men like me. My interest is in the dmz of money. > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> From where they look, this is all they are going to see. But it's > not > >> >> all > >> >> there is. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 3:51 AM, Bob Haugen <[email protected]> > >> >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> I'd like to see a real life somewhat-populated with real people > >> >>> example of how this is supposed to work and what this is supposed to > >> >>> enable. > >> >>> > >> >>> On Tue, May 15, 2018 at 4:01 AM, Michel Bauwens > >> >>> <[email protected]> > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>> > This article from Dick Bryan is the first one bringing it all > >> >>> > together, > >> >>> > giving clear criterial for p2p/commons oriented crypto > developments, > >> >>> > I > >> >>> > had > >> >>> > intuited some of them, but was not able to bring it all together > yet > >> >>> > as > >> >>> > this > >> >>> > author has: > >> >>> > > >> >>> > https://medium.com/econaut/what-is-a-crypto-economy-155bdbc4ab1d > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > Some criteria to look for (via Dick Bryan): > >> >>> > > >> >>> > 1. "Programmable organizations enable production to be organized > in > >> >>> > a > >> >>> > way > >> >>> > that makes social criteria the rationale for production; not a > >> >>> > constraint on > >> >>> > it." > >> >>> > > >> >>> > [1] > >> >>> > > >> >>> > 2. "The rise of ‘networks’ as modes of corporate organization > breaks > >> >>> > down > >> >>> > the conventional means that differentiate one corporation from > >> >>> > another > >> >>> > and > >> >>> > challenges the principle of ‘competition’ as the driver of > corporate > >> >>> > rationale. These are both issues that feature prominently in > >> >>> > decentralized > >> >>> > applications." > >> >>> > > >> >>> > [2] > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > * 3. Mechanisms, like tokens, that allow surplus value to be > >> >>> > retained > >> >>> > by the > >> >>> > workers, not capital. > >> >>> > > >> >>> > " Changes in the nature of work (precarization, casualization, > >> >>> > subcontracting, the rise of the gig economy) see workers carrying > >> >>> > greater > >> >>> > risks and break down the attachment of work and living standards > to > >> >>> > employment. There is growing interest in alternative ways of > >> >>> > organizing > >> >>> > work." [3] > >> >>> > > >> >>> > 4. "the real potential is cryptocurrencies as units of account: as > >> >>> > modes of > >> >>> > measuring economic activity that are conceived differently from > >> >>> > those > >> >>> > intrinsic to fiat money. Fiat money has become tied to > conventional > >> >>> > framings > >> >>> > of profit and loss, income and expenditure, and a market-centred > >> >>> > calculus. > >> >>> > Non-fiat monies have the potential for developing new ways to > >> >>> > calculate > >> >>> > economic activity; ways that represent different social and > economic > >> >>> > values, > >> >>> > and measure performance by criteria other than profit. Think about > >> >>> > it > >> >>> > for a > >> >>> > moment. The unit of account potential signals the importance of > the > >> >>> > crypto > >> >>> > economy developing ways (not a singular way, but coin-specific > ways) > >> >>> > of > >> >>> > accounting and measuring the activities supported by each token. > We > >> >>> > see > >> >>> > this > >> >>> > as central to giving tokens a material basis in the crypto > economy; > >> >>> > not > >> >>> > just > >> >>> > leaving them as speculative stores of value. .... "Exchange is > often > >> >>> > between > >> >>> > parties of unequal power, so mutual gain cannot be presumed. An > >> >>> > important > >> >>> > issue of the crypto economy is how blockchain can and cannot > >> >>> > countermand > >> >>> > asymmetrical power in trade. We see blockchain not facilitating > >> >>> > frictionless > >> >>> > markets but rather frictionless capital: distributed capital." [4] > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > -- > >> >>> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > >> >>> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > >> >>> > > >> >>> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > >> >>> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p- > foundation > >> >>> > > >> >>> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; > >> >>> > http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > >> >>> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > >> > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > >> > > >> > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > >> > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > >> > > >> > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > >> > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - > http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > > > Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: > > http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation > > > > Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; > > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > > > > > > > > -- P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net Connect: http://p2pfoundation.ning.com; Discuss: http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation Updates: http://del.icio.us/mbauwens; http://friendfeed.com/mbauwens; http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens
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