Yeah, sure. I think I meant more that you could utilize the pure-data.info site 
directly for all the pd-l2ork build/install info and download hosting and keep 
the current l2ork site for the ensemble.

Anyway, just an idea :D In any case, pd-L2ork IMO needs a space to it's own, 
especially if you expand to more platforms & build/install info.

My original criticism was more that there isn't a pd-l2ork section, it's listed 
under "Join the L2orkmania" -> "Software". 

On Sep 23, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Ivica Bukvic <[email protected]> wrote:

> It is already linked from that site.
> 
> On Sep 23, 2014 12:27 PM, "Dan Wilcox" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Maybe the software portal could be a subdomain or integrated on the 
> pure-data.info site along with vanilla & extended.
> 
> On Sep 23, 2014, at 12:18 PM, Ivica Bukvic <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
>> True. It is trying to be to many things-- an ensemble and a software portal.
>> 
>> On Sep 23, 2014 12:04 PM, "Dan Wilcox" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Yes, this is great news. I didn't mean to sound pessimistic earlier, just 
>> realistic.
>> 
>> My 2cents, though is that the l2ork website is hard to navigate :D
>> 
>> On Sep 23, 2014, at 11:54 AM, Ivica Bukvic <[email protected]> wrote:
>> 
>>> Well, there is a concerted effort on the pd-l2ork side of things. We now 
>>> technically have 3 devs contributing code regularly to git and 3 additional 
>>> contributors.
>>> 
>>> On Sep 23, 2014 11:14 AM, "Dan Wilcox" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I had to bring up semantics because "developer" means alot of different 
>>> things to alot of different people.
>>> 
>>> Also, I didn't want to bring up vanilla versus non-vanilla, just pointing 
>>> out that the number of people who could help Hans put out a new version of 
>>> extended is rather low. IMO a languishing extended is bad news for Pd in 
>>> general as it's the go to distribution for most people using Pd ... but 
>>> that's probably for another debate. We all work on what's important to us, 
>>> I'm just sad again to see that the priorities don't seem to match up with a 
>>> concerted joint effort, at least as compared to my experience working with 
>>> OpenFrameworks. But of course what's considered a "concerted, joint effort" 
>>> is also up to interpretation :D
>>> 
>>> Hopefully we'll have a development meet up at some point soon.
>>> 
>>> I personally feel guilty seeing things like this come up because I have the 
>>> *ability* to do it, but I don't have the time when trying to balance life, 
>>> work, & art. Honestly, this is when I know I'm probably getting in too deep 
>>> ...
>>> 
>>> This is why I suggested "graduate students". At this point, up keep and 
>>> versioning should be supported by some sort of institution, if possible, 
>>> and by people who could be rotated in and out.
>>> 
>>> On Sep 23, 2014, at 10:57 AM, Ivica Bukvic <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Well, I guess you can call me a "developer," whatever that means--I don't 
>>>> care that much about titles. Yet, I would argue that as far as low level 
>>>> stuff is concerned in recent years pd-l2ork has certainly pushed the 
>>>> envelope in terms of core development. Even the feature that has earned me 
>>>> the title in quotations delves so deep into the core that currently it 
>>>> cannot be implemented in either vanilla or extended without significant 
>>>> changes even though it retains full backwards compatibility. I would also 
>>>> argue it is essential and offers a slew of features that are unavailable 
>>>> in any other implementation of presets.
>>>> 
>>>> Pd-l2ork's greatest deterrent is exclusivity to Linux, which was initially 
>>>> a conscious decision to allow for faster development while addressing the 
>>>> lack of manpower. But that is about to change once we complete port to Qt 
>>>> library. We already transitioned to Tkpath quite a while ago which allowed 
>>>> us to use a full SVG-based canvas, so I have no doubt we will be able to 
>>>> do this again. Once this is done, we won't have to circumnavigate 
>>>> exceptions Tk library requires in order to be compliant with different 
>>>> platforms and I would argue in turn that will result in faster 
>>>> development. So, if you are really interested in pushing the development 
>>>> of non-vanilla pd I think you should heed some of Jonathan's advice and 
>>>> look for ways how community can work together in combining the "best of" 
>>>> and engaging developers and "developers" alike who have shown dedication 
>>>> to the cause. But before that can be accomplished, the community should 
>>>> consider agreeing on design choices. For instance, pd-l2ork came into 
>>>> existence because it focuses on more nimble development at the expense of 
>>>> potential loss of backwards compatibility (even though after 4 years of 
>>>> development the only incompatibility we infatuated is correcting buggy 
>>>> positioning of iemgui  objects, which is cosmetic in nature) because a 
>>>> good chunk of that compatibility stems from buggy implementations that 
>>>> stuck around long enough that they became a part of the standard (e.g. 
>>>> iemgui's buggy positioning of objects that are arbitrarily offset from 
>>>> their x and y positions, as reported by the pd script), which is 
>>>> unfortunate.
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> Ico
>>>> 
>>>> On Sep 23, 2014 9:21 AM, "Dan Wilcox" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> I disagree. Your example lists what? 2 more developers? I'm talking about 
>>>> "developers" as in people working the C code, build scripts, tcl/tk etc 
>>>> aka people who could, theoretically, help push out a new Pd-extended 
>>>> release. True, we have plenty of people working on externals, but this is 
>>>> a problem for someone who can go deeper.
>>>> 
>>>> I still maintain that the number of low level developers to overall users 
>>>> (non-developers) is relatively low.
>>>> 
>>>> On Sep 23, 2014, at 6:00 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> However, your description of the user/developer ratio doesn't ring true 
>>>>> to me.  There's actually a surplus of developers and development energy-- 
>>>>> I count two implementations of presets in the last year or two (in 
>>>>> Pd-l2ork and the Chocolate et Coffee lib) which are in addition to 
>>>>> however many already exist on svn and the Pd forum.
>>>> 
>>>> --------
>>>> Dan Wilcox
>>>> @danomatika
>>>> danomatika.com
>>>> robotcowboy.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
>>> --------
>>> Dan Wilcox
>>> @danomatika
>>> danomatika.com
>>> robotcowboy.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> --------
>> Dan Wilcox
>> @danomatika
>> danomatika.com
>> robotcowboy.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> --------
> Dan Wilcox
> @danomatika
> danomatika.com
> robotcowboy.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

--------
Dan Wilcox
@danomatika
danomatika.com
robotcowboy.com





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