mutable instruments elements etc. was ported to axoloti (community.axoloti.com <http://community.axoloti.com/>) as well, so maybe look at that code also…
> On 8 Aug 2017, at 11:41, Julian Brooks <jbee...@gmail.com> wrote: > > This is a fascinating and important story. > > Does appear that it would be a big multifaceted project though. > > Would make a brilliant PhD/Post-Doc for someone and could be very a useful > addition to the body of computer music knowledge. > > For me, noting the very fine work by Cyrille and others, we're still only > scratching the surface of possibilities offered by approaches such as PMPD. > In many ways Modalysis is the daddy of them all, and still seems to afford > approaches later software cannot accomplish. > > I do hope this doesn't go the way of too many Pd projects that fall by the > wayside due to overwhelming complexity, lack of contributors and requirements > of dedication. This is, again for me, an area that we as a community > currently struggle with - getting organised - which is in many ways, if you > really think about it, a surprise. > > BTW - Isn't it wonderful knowing people like Jean-Marie are just lurking > around on here:) - Pd is a powerful force. > > Julian > > > On 8 August 2017 at 08:32, Jean-Marie Adrien <jm.adrien....@gmail.com > <mailto:jm.adrien....@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > Le 7 août 2017 à 13:56, cyrille henry <c...@chnry.net > > <mailto:c...@chnry.net>> a écrit : > > > > hello, > > > > I had a look at a modalys-help.pd file. It appear that modalys is not > > implemented as a pd abstraction, but as a compiled object. I may be wrong, > > but I think this object use modalys file that define all material / shape / > > exitator / etc. So it's quite useless without the full modalys software. > > > > anyway, in order to add my piece of answer to the original question: > > about 20 years ago I made my master degree about a bow / string > > interaction using a fake motorized bow and a virtual string. > > 2 different strings where implemented : > > > > -The 1st sting was made using virtual 1D mass, spring and damper in a > > linear arrangement, just like a spacial discretisation of a real string. > > This result of incorrect tuning of high harmonics of the virtual string > > (regarding a real string) > > > > -The 2nd string was made using something also named "modal synthesis" (but > > very different from modalys) : it was "just" mass/spring/damper 1D > > resonator connected together, a bit like the paper initially send in this > > thread. > > > > Since modalys use matrices, I guess that it use more complex interaction > > between elements than a simple spring/damper interaction like I use to do. > > This result in being able to also simulate the shape of the vibrating > > structure. > > There is a gap between mass spring modeling and modal synthesis with results > from the mathematical formalization of the vibration phenomenon : to be > short, modal synthesis shifts towards an « abstract » representation of > vibrating structures which is general and applies to any vibrating object, > mechanical or gas. > This formalization considers that a vibrating structure is a set of vibrating > modes which are associated to a vibration frequency and a mode deformation > shape. > Any vibrating deformation is thus computed as the infinite sum of elementary > (modal) deformations. This applies obviously to mass/ spring, to strings and > … to anything more complex. > This formalization is well known in maths (since 200 years or so), and used > in the industry since 60 years or so (for vibrations in trains, boats or > bridges, means large vibrating structures too complex to model with finite > elements), but was at first used for sound synthesis at IRCAM at the end of > the eighties as far as i know. > > The advantage of seeing things this way is that > - on one hand you process in time domain, which allows the computation of > natural transients in complex musical situations (things impossible or very > difficult with other sound synthesis methods). Means you compute the > displacement in time domain of significant points (eg contact points and > sound pickup points). To achieve this, you simply program gestures on > exciters structures, and you obtain the corresponding complex sound. > - on the other hand you keep an eye on the frequency domain which is very > important in the musical perspective, because freqs are part of the > formalization. > > Lastly, because the formalization is general, you are not « structure and > device design dependent » like you’re are for instance with finite elements > of with klarplus strong, and , as a result, you can work and program in a > general abstract way, and use interpolation and dynamic evolution (mapping) > of vibrating structures on the fly. > Mathematically, this boils down in a matrix equation to be solved at sample > rate, (means matrix inversion) the dimension of the matrix depending on the > number of interactions between vibrating structures. > If the structure is stable, you invert the matrix once and that’s it. If > things change (vibrato), you invert the matrix each time step. > On the top of the software, you have vibrating structures (tubes / rods / > plates / strings / membranes etc…), software to produce modal data from > physical parameters (size, density etc) and a menu of excitation types (hit, > blow, air jet, reed, double reed, glue, etc..) which connect the vibrating > structures together (exciters such as hammers, bows and fingers being also > vibrating structures). > You pick up the multi channel sound where you want on the vibrating > structures. > Making sound is then assembling structures, and driving exciters with > gestures, just like you manipulate your bow and left hand fingers on a violin. > > I will try to find my PHD dissertation (it was saved on micro film !) which > explains all this with multiple details, and from which the Missing Link > publication is a short summary. Because the PHD stuff is kind of official, > there is a good chance i can find the text somewhere. Of course i do not have > any sample of this text at home (i have to search) and even less a pdf, the > dissertation was typed on a VAX mainframe connected to a Versatec with an > archeological text editor whose name i do not even remember (no-one remembers > though … maybe Miller… what was the name of the text editor ? :) > JM > > > > > > > Anyway, about 15 years ago I start the pmpd library (physical modelling for > > pure data) that provide simple mass / spring / damper simulation. The pmpd~ > > object allow this kind of simulation at audio rate. There is an example of > > the 1st kind of string simulation. The 2nd string can also be implemented > > thanks to this object, but I did not provide any example since I miss the > > way to tune the model. > > > > pmpd~ provide only simple interaction, so I don't use it any-more. I use > > the pmpd object that is lot's more complex (but works only at data rate) > > and a simple hack to compute audio data. There is also an example in the > > library distribution. > > > > if you are interested, you can try pmpd using apt-get or deken on linux. I > > know that Nicolas Montgermont compile pmpd for osX, so a recent binary > > exist somewhere. I have no idea about recent build for windows. > > > > cheers > > C > > > > > > > > Le 06/08/2017 à 21:58, Jean-Marie Adrien a écrit : > >> would be great if it would be in pd abstractions ! > >> everything is in the paper though, you are right, and the method is > >> incredibly powerful, so the project was in that time to control it with > >> gestures data bases and artificial intelligence and so on, all of this > >> being existing now, not speaking about multi channel sound diffusion etc. > >> I was disappointed when, after having developed the method at IRCAM, i > >> discovered (and had to pay for it though) some ten years ago the actual > >> modalys thing that was kind of retro engineered after i left IRCAM, from > >> the big C++ initial software with was developed between 1984 and 89. > >> The math is not so complex, it is just a matrix equation incremented step > >> by step, and very straightforward and intuitive discontinuities in time > >> domain which correspond to straightforward updates of the matrix, > >> resulting for instance from contact between objects and other intuitive > >> events. > >> If you simplify the maths, it will probably become more complex i’d say, > >> and you will probably hear it, because time domain sound synthesis is > >> quite sensitive. > >> On the same line, one advantage of modal synthesis is that you can achieve > >> impossible physical excitations on imaginary structures, and interpolate > >> between all this, having transient sounds and articulations, but even with > >> the full math though, you could hear in that case that you were sort of > >> tearing the equations, which corresponds to the fact that there is no > >> existing physical gesture which you could refer to when exploring > >> impossible configurations. > >> Math simplification is what happened probably when the available pd > >> modalys software was achieved : i was disappointed by this tool and rarely > >> use it. > >> Another application has been developed by Apple in Logic with the > >> "sculpture » plugin : it is very much main stream, they probably make > >> money with it and Im still poor. Bref. > >> I’d love the true vintage thing on pd now : it is just implementing a > >> matrix equation with updates conditions. > >> The point is that, thirty years later, i do not understand anymore a > >> single line in C++, although I’ve written many thousands of lines. > >> Hmm. I dont believe it myself, how is this even possible ? But i remember > >> very well the principles. Id be happy to help if i can anyway. > >> jm > >>> Le 6 août 2017 à 16:50, Jesse Mejia <jme...@anestheticaudio.com > >>> <mailto:jme...@anestheticaudio.com>> a écrit : > >>> > >>> Yes - I mentioned Ircam's Modalys and that paper in my initial post. > >>> Because modal synthesis is so well known, and well documented, I'm > >>> surprised there isn't a similar (but free!) pd implementation. Something > >>> with abstractions instead of externals would be great. > >>> > >>> So let's make one. I know it's a bank of resonant bandpasses, but working > >>> out their relationships based on the modal characteristics of physical > >>> shapes seems to be key, and abstracting those relationships to friendly > >>> controls. > >>> > >>> The math in the papers is a bit beyond me but it looks like it's all > >>> there. I can't tell by looking at it if it's something that would be too > >>> hard/annoying to do with vanilla.. or if it's describable in a less math > >>> heavy way. > >>> > >>> Alex - newly compiled versions of the stk would be great! I tried and > >>> failed at that about a year ago. But the faust implementations compile > >>> well from faust to pd. > >>> > >>>> On Aug 6, 2017, at 3:24 AM, cyrille henry <c...@chnry.net > >>>> <mailto:c...@chnry.net>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> :) > >>>>> indeed and i had myself to _pay_ for it, which is something that > >>>>> probably illustrates the "élégance à la française" > >>>>> jm > >>>> > >>>> I did not encourage piracy, but since pd patch can't be protected I > >>>> guess that an anonymous source could leak the files without any trouble. > >>>> > >>>> cheers > >>>> c > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Pd-list@lists.iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at> mailing list > >>>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > >>>> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > >>>> <https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Pd-list@lists.iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at> mailing list > >>> UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > >>> https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > >>> <https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list> > > > _______________________________________________ > Pd-list@lists.iem.at <mailto:Pd-list@lists.iem.at> mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list > <https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list> > > _______________________________________________ > Pd-list@lists.iem.at mailing list > UNSUBSCRIBE and account-management -> > https://lists.puredata.info/listinfo/pd-list
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