Wow.
On Apr 21, 2006, at 4:32 PM, Lennon Day-Reynolds wrote:
On 4/21/06, Tim Dysinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Don't some of you guys come from the Java world? Don't you miss the
features in code completion, re-factoring and all that goodness that
IDEs gave you?
Two words: duck typing. Pick and use simple interfaces that *really*
hide implementation details, (instead of simply codifying them in an
abstract interface) and you shouldn't have to go through so much
churn.
That's always good to do - regardless of language.
When you first started writing Java, were you really able to recall
all the various Exception subclasses and core library interfaces
immediately? Was the method signature hinting in Eclipse really that
useful before you had a solid grasp of the "Java Way" of doing things?
Did J2EE come totally naturally to you, without any reference outside
of your trusty IDE?
No you're right when learning, you have to look at the docs at least
one time.
I am just looking for understanding here with the best way to dev
code with my posts. I AM NOT TRYING TO KNOCK ANYTHING.
How productive is it to stop, change windows, search
and look an API and switch back to you editor to finish the task
every time you forget the exact APIs format? [...]
Again, if the API you're working with is really so obscure it requires
you to constantly refer to documentation, perhaps it's the library,
not the language, you should be complaining about.
Yes, there are scenarios where you must expose a certain amount of
underlying complexity, but the richest Ruby libraries (such as the
Rails zeitgeist) tend to move in the direction of implementing a
domain-specific language, not just a complicated body of method
signatures.
Don't get me wrong, I'm committed to finishing the "Agile with RoR"
book but I miss Java already.
Homesickness and culture-shock are common occurrences for people
moving to new environments, no matter how dysfunctional their home or
idyllic their new surroundings. (It's a joke, of course, but there is
some truth to it...)
Java C# Python "dysfunctional" ??? OK.
Remember that RoR is an acronym for "Ruby on Rails" -- not only a
programming language, but a rich and featureful set of libraries and
tools for crafting web applications. Expertly-crafted screencasts
aside, it is not something you can learn overnight, nor should you
expect your tools to do all the learning for you.
No one should expect to learn via osmosis. I have about 6 languages
under my belt over the last 20 years. Tell me something new. Still,
I use code completion, refactoring, object browsers, debuggers and
such every single day in Java (and C#) because it's productive.
Once you've internalized some of it, though, I think you'll find that
method signatures and class interfaces naturally follow pretty
consistent patterns. The other practice that stepped up my
productivity considerably was doing most of my initial development
work in an Irb session with readline and completion support turned on;
that way, I get tab-completion like a full IDE, and immediate feedback
on the syntactic and logical validity of my code. Once I have a method
working in an interactive session, I can basically just copy-and-paste
it into a text editor window, and add it to my library.
That's the kind of advice I was looking for. Thanks.
So far I'm not seeing the benefit over Maven w/ project templates
(which can give you convention over configuration), Spring (which
gives you IoC), Hibernate (ActiveRecord) and a Eclipse with all the
web tools plugins (which doesn't cost me $50 either like TextMate).
It sounds like you're trying to make a decision on the basis of a list
of features, rather than a real sense of the workflow and productivity
associated with each tool. Yes, the better Java IDEs such as Eclipse
and IntelliJ can hide or automate much of the complexity of the
underlying language and frameworks, but the fact remains that Java and
J2EE offer an inelegant (if conservative and utilitarian) environment
in which to create code.
WTF?
I don't consider myself a Rails developer, but I wouldn't give up the
productivity gains (and stress reduction) I accomplished by leaving
Java behind for application development of all kinds. The mental
overhead required to juggle all the layers of abstraction in most Java
apps more or less *requires* the kind of rich tool support you talk
about missing, while I find that I seldom have to refer to the API
documentation for most basic Ruby coding, and when I do, I often find
that my initial guess as to method naming and signatures likely was
correct.
And with Java I don't need to guess, because there are tools that
will make sure I got it right AS I'M TYPING before I deploy it and
find out I'm wrong.
Finally, there is no special relationship between TextMate and Rails;
DHH may prefer it, but you really can use any decent programmer's
editor to produce Rails code quite happily. I alternate between
TextWrangler and Vim, personally, which is especially handy for those
situations when I have a live demo running off a server other than my
PowerBook and want to make a 5-second change without doing a full
Subversion commit, update, and refresh on the server. Claiming that
What the hell tools where you using in Java? Being able to keep
developing without refreshing/restarting the app server isn't new and
special to Ruby.
the $50 price tag somehow means that Ruby can't compete with Java is
disingenuous.
My trying to keep an open mind is fading fast with the above comments
"inelegant" "dysfunctional" "disingenuous"...........
So far from what I'm hearing is every bit as bigoted as most Java
developers ( myself included not to long ago ). I'm trying to keep
an open mind here. Let's not ruin it with "My VI is better than your
emacs" BS
-Tim
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