Jon, Edwina, List,
I think, we always have to distinguish between categorial composition (categorial parts of something), and categorial classification (categorial kinds of something). There are e.g. two compositions: the sign triad consists of sign, object, interpretant, and the sign relation triad consists of the sign itself (aka the S-S-relation), the S-O-relation, and the S-I- relation. However, I donot see a great difference between these two compositions, neither between the sign itself and the sign-sign-relation. This is so, because the object already is a relation with the sign, as is the interpretant. When there is no sign to denote something for object, there isn´t an object, just a not interpreted (so there too isn´t an interpretant) something. And the sign itself is a relation, so it may be called sign-sign-relation as well.
Further compositions are the object consisting of two, and the interpretant of three parts. Categorially, the `nesses of the parts of a sign triad are: 1 ; 2.1. ; 2.2. ; 3.1. ; 3.2. ; 3.3.
Now to classification: Although the sign as correlate is a 1ness in the composition of the triad, it can be classified by the categories in quali-, sin-, and legisign. The object and the interpretant aka the object-sign-relation and the interpretant-sign-relation too can be classified in the three categories. Classes of compositions of three of one of each of these three blocks can be had not in 27, but only in 10 ways to have 10 classes of signs. Note, that Peirce called them "classes of signs", not of sign triads. So I also donot see the real difference between sign and sign triad. This difference is only due to what you are talking about: The correlates of the sign triad in the first place, there the sign is one of three correlates. Or in the second place, the correlates of the sign again: Sign, object, interpretant. This is funny, that A consists of A, B, and C., so something consists of itself and other things. But funny doesn´t mean impossible: In a functional (or relational) composition it is possible, it is a functional re-entry-thing. And it is a functional, not a spatial composition like a gear box, because it is all about relations, not of material things. So the DO too can be part of the sign relation, although it may be far away. In a functional (or relational) composition things are possible, that would not be possible in a spatial composition.
Kind regards
Helmut
Edwina, List:
ET: I’m afraid I still don’t understand Gary R’s vectors and so won’t comment on them. I have read them many times..and don’t ‘get’ them’.
I appreciate the honest admission. Evidently, the same is true for any application of Peirce's phaneroscopic categories--even where it is fully consistent with his own writings--other than your own narrow conception of them as "categorical modes" for sign classification, primarily employing his 1903 taxonomy.
ET: I don’t agree with your positing - first - that the Interpretants are operative in the categorical mode of Thirdness. - I note that of the ten classes only ONE class has the Interpretants in Thirdness. In the other NINE classes, the Interpretant is either in a mode of Secondness or Firstness.
I am not positing any such thing. I am not talking about a "categorical mode" in which the interpretants are "operative." I am not talking about sign classification. Again, I am talking about a completely different but equally valid application of Peirce's phaneroscopic categories.
ET: I totally disagree with Gary R’s, as you outline it - ‘vector of determination’ …with its direct aligning the semiosic data movement of Object->Representamen->Interpretant..with the categorical movement of 2ns->1ns->3ns…
So much for not commenting on Gary R.'s vectors. The point here is that once phaneroscopic analysis of the genuine triadic relation of mediating aligns the sign with 1ns, the object with 2ns, and the interpretant with 3ns, the directionality of the real and continuous process of semiosis--always from the object through the sign toward the interpretant--conforms to his vector of determination (2ns→1ns→3ns).
ET: As I’ve pointed out, this is informationally and cognitively illogical. A representamen operating within the categorical mode of Firstness [quality, feeling, emotion] doesn’t have the cognitive content to produce a generality, a rule, a law [Thirdness].
Again, that is not what I am talking about at all. Again, I agree that a qualisign (sign itself is possible/1ns) cannot be an argument (sign's relation with its final interpretant is necessitant/3ns).
ET: I don’t know that one can so readily also align the categories with a separate temporal framework.
I have discussed this on the List before and in my paper on "Temporal Synechism" (https://rdcu.be/b9xVm)--just as the object (2ns) determines the sign (1ns) to determine the interpretant (3ns), the accomplished past (2ns) determines the nascent present (1ns) to determine the contingent future (3ns). This is yet another completely different but equally valid application of Peirce's phaneroscopic categories, fully consistent with his own writings.
Regards,
Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian
On Wed, Jun 18, 2025 at 5:36 PM Edwina Taborsky <[email protected]> wrote:
Jon, List1] I’m afraid I still don’t understand Gary R’s vectors and so won’t comment on them. I have read them many times..and don’t ‘get’ them’.2]. The quotation you refer to refers only to the modal nature of Thirdness - either in its pure/genuine form [3-3] or operative within Secondness [3-2] or operative within Firstness [3-1]. This has nothing to do with the Interpretants.Therefore - I don’t agree with your positing - first - that the Interpretants are operative in the categorical mode of Thirdness. - I note that of the ten classes only ONE class has the Interpretants in Thirdness. In the other NINE classes, the Interpretant is either in a mode of Secondness or Firstness.3]By the way- I note that in most Signs [ understand the capitalized Sign as the irreducible triad of Object-Representamen-Interpretant] …there is not always a Final Interpretant…But , and however.. I totally disagree with Gary R’s, as you outline it - ‘vector of determination’ …with its direct aligning the semiosic data movement of Object->Representamen->Interpretant..with the categorical movement of 2ns->1ns->3ns…As I’ve pointed out, this is informationally and cognitively illogical. A represent amen operating within the categorical mode of Firstness [ quality, feeling, emotion] doesn’t have the cognitive content to produce a generality, a rule, a law [ Tjhirdness].And such a path [2ns-1ns-3ns] certainly isn’t found in the Peircean ten or other classes!!Also- I don’t know that one can so readily also align the categories with a separate temporal framework. I can understand Firstness, certainly, as ‘present time’, and Secondness, with its differentiation of this’ from that..enables, history and the past..but these differentiations can also occur in the Present. [Secondness contains Firstness anyway]. As for Thirdness - I see it as continuity rather than Future..but..I don’t think this is the real problem..which remains, as I see it - the confusion. between ordinal movement [ First,Second, Third] with the categorical modes.Adn as I’ve said - I see TWO movements :1] the data movement…where data moves fromthe Dynamic Object..through the mediative Representamen..to result in the Interpretant;and2] The Cognitive movement…where data is picked up by the receptor Representamen from the external world [Dynamic Object]…and is processed by this Representamen..to produce the Interpretant. Teh Cognitive moment begins,[1] therefore with the REpresentamen,which is the cognitive agency in the triad….and its gathers data froth Object [2] to [3] produce teh Interpretant. This an ordinal process…Edwina
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