Helmut, list
A further comment on semiosis and ‘classification’. I’ll note that for Peirce,
“the explanation of the phenomenon lies in the fact that the entire universe -
not merely the universe of existents, but all that wider universe, embracing
the universe of existents as a part the universe which we are all accustomed to
refer to as ’the truth’ - that all this universe is perfused with signs if it
is not composed exclusively of signs” 5.449n.
Now -given this excerpt, that the whole universe is composed of signs
[plural],- my conclusion is that semiosis is the basic analytic ’tool’ of the
phaneron…The focus becomes: how do signs develop, interact, function? What do
they do? Indeed - even, WHY are signs? And I note that the ’signs’ which Peirce
refers to are complex, in that they are composed of three correlates, which do
not function or even exist separately but in distinct relations with each
other.
As an analytic tool, the task is not simply classification, which is, as Peirce
also noted, a form of measurement, but analysis of the function [pragmaticism]
of these phenomena. And for this, we need to acknowledge that the basic unit
of the universe, the triadic sign, is complex. Not complicated.
Again, complexity means that the entity cannot be reduced to its parts; and
complicated, is a mechanical reduction to parts. [Therefore, as complex, the
Sign is not A + B+ C]
A complex system is explained by Peirce, is operative within three ‘modes of
being’, the famous Categories’…in all their genuine and degenerate forms. And,
as Peirce also pointed out, these insert restrictions of processing and
functionality into the phenomena of the world - eg - that a possible {1ns] can
only produce a possible [1ns]. The concept of barriers, of restrictions of
processing and function is, I think, very important. It enables continuity of
form and interaction..vs the entropy of chaos.
Therefore in conclusion, I think that the analysis of the complex nature and
function of the Sign - which requires analysis of the results of the Categories
in the sign existence and action..is a major focus.
Edwina
> On Jun 20, 2025, at 11:17 AM, Edwina Taborsky <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> Helmut, list
>
> I do indeed say that the TERM of ’sign’ can mean both the mediate correlate [
> aka the representamen] AND the full triad. It all depends on the context of
> the discussion.
>
> But I most certainly do not say that the categories are merely applicable for
> ‘classification’. I’m not very interested in ‘classification’. The
> categories, as Peirce is quite clear - are about the operative functionality
> of the data/information. That is - is the data functioning in a mode of
> ‘quality’, wholeness [ 1ns, Firstness]; or is it functioning in a reactive ,
> discrete mode [2ns, Secondness]..or, is it functioning in a general mode
> [3ns, Thirdness]. See 1.23-24 and on and on - all throughout his work. This
> analysis of data functionality is, to me, the basis of the Peircean
> categories.
>
> Here’s also a difference, I think, between something that is complex, and
> something that is complicated. The former can’t be reduced to its parts,
> while the latter, as mechanical, can be reduced to its parts.
>
> And so, it is also informative to consider Peirce’s outline of relations
> within the triad [ see 1.555 and on] . In this outline, I think the
> interactions are complex because of the functioning of the categories.
>
> Edwina
>
>
>
>> On Jun 19, 2025, at 4:42 PM, Helmut Raulien <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Edwina, Jon, List,
>>
>> in my post before, I have sketched an outline, that is in accord with
>> Edwina´s claim, that the sign is the triad too, but contradicts Edwina´s
>> claim, that categories merely apply to classification ("modes" or
>> "modality"). My outline also contradicts Jon´s claim, that the sign is
>> merely a correlate, but not the whole triad. My view is intendes to make the
>> theory of complexity less complicated, like an Ockham-razor, so I hope.
>> Whether this complexity reduction is a justified one, or not justified, as
>> many other complexity reductions are, is the question. Or, I would say:
>> Complexity-reductions mostly are not helpful, but complicatedness-reductions
>> may well be. My intention is to show complexity as less complicated, and to
>> look for rules of it`s as simple and general as possible. The only
>> hard-to-accept thing about my outline is the counter-intuitive claim of
>> re-entry in a relational/ functional composition. With this re-enty concept,
>> both is true: The sign is a correlate of three, and also it is the triad.
>> Logically, I would say: The proposition "A=A+B+C" does not contradict
>> classical logic, because it does not mean "A and not A". So I think, that if
>> we get acquainted with the said re-entry concept of relational or functional
>> composition, we at last are able to end some before-endless (seeming)
>> quibbles, so I hope.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Helmut
>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. Juni 2025 um 19:20
>> Von: "Edwina Taborsky" <[email protected]>
>> An: [email protected], "Jon Alan Schmidt" <[email protected]>
>> CC: "Edwina Taborsky" <[email protected]>
>> Betreff: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Types of sign action
>> Last time.
>>
>> 1] You are the one who is using the categorical terms of 1ns, 2ns, 3ns in
>> your outline. Why are you using these terms if you declare you are not
>> talking about the categorical modes?
>>
>> 2] Peirce constantly uses the terms of ‘relation’ when he is discussing the
>> triadic nature of the Sign.. [Note: See Robert Maerty’s ' 75 definitions of
>> the Sign'.
>>
>> “A sign is anything which is related to a Second thing, its Object, in
>> resect to a Quality, in such a way as to bring a Third thing, its
>> interpretant, into relation to this same Object. [1902; 2:92 ; my emphasis]
>>
>> “A sign, or Representamen, is a First, which stands in such a genuine
>> triadic relation to a Second, called its Object, as to be capable of
>> determining a Third, called its Interpretant, to assume the same triadic
>> relation…[1902: 2.274. my emphasis].
>>
>> And I note - the terms of First, Second, Third, do NOT refer to categorical
>> 1ns, 2ns, 3ns, but are ordinal references.
>>
>> 3] The point is - the Sign is not reducible to the Representamen alone. It
>> is irreducible in that it exists only as a triad of relations.
>>
>> That is Peirce uses the term of ‘’sign’ often to refer to the Representamen
>> and also to the triad .
>>
>> “A sign therefore is an object which is in relation to its object on the one
>> hand and to an interpretant on the other…[1904. 8.832]. My emphasis
>>
>> “It is difficult to define a sign in general. It is something which is in
>> such a relation to an object that it determines, or might determine, another
>> sign of the same object…A sign has essentially two correlates, its object
>> and its possible Interpretant sign. Of these three, Sign, Object and
>> Interpretant, the sign as being the very thing under consideration is
>> Monadic, the Object is Dyadic, and the Interpretant is Triadic..”1905. MS
>> 939.
>>
>> “A sign may be defined as something [ not necessarily existent] which is so
>> determined by a second something called its Object that it will tend in its
>> turn to determined a third something called its Ingerpretangt…[1906. MS292].
>>
>> “The object and the interpretant are thus merely the two correlates of the
>> sign’ [1907 MS 318].
>> And I note that a create is in a RELATIONSHIP
>>
>> “Signs, the only things with which a human being can, without derogation,
>> consent to have any transaction, being a sign himself, are triadic” 1909
>> 6.344]. [I note the phrase..thag a human being is a Sign!!!!]
>>
>> Again, this views the sign as a triad. ..and not just to ’the first
>> correlate’.
>>
>> Where does Peirce refer only to the Represnetmen as a sign? Try where he is
>> outlining the relations between the Representamen and, eg, the
>> Object…or..with the Inerpretant.
>>
>> .."the most fundametnal divison of signs is into icons, indices and
>> symbols’. 2.275 1902….and the following outline where he uses the term of
>> sign to mean representamen …eg..a sign may be conic…[Note; this is referring
>> only to the relation between the Represetnamen and the Object..Not to the
>> full triad]. He does this all through this section.
>>
>> And that’s it…..I’m into discussion but not debate.
>>
>> Edwina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 19, 2025, at 12:32 PM, Jon Alan Schmidt <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Edwina, List:
>>
>> ET: You have a view of the categories which seems, to me, ungrounded in his
>> writings.
>>
>> You have a view of the categories which seems, to me, extremely narrow. You
>> apparently limit them to one specific application--trichotomies for
>> classifying signs. Peirce employs them much more broadly--they permeate his
>> entire system of thought.
>>
>> ET: Would you provide me with his outline where he writes that a triad with
>> a DO correlate in 2ns produces a Representamen in 1ns and Interpretants
>> operative in 3ns?
>>
>> Of course not, because I am not making any such claim--again, I am not
>> talking about the "categorical modes" in which the correlates and their
>> relations are "operative." Why do you keep insisting otherwise? As I have
>> stated twice before, I agree with you that a qualisign (sign itself is
>> possible/1ns) cannot be an argument (sign's relation to final interpretant
>> is necessitant/3ns). That has absolutely nothing to do with phaneroscopic
>> analysis of the genuine triadic relation of mediating, which aligns the sign
>> with 1ns (genuine only), the object with 2ns (genuine and degenerate), and
>> the interpretant with 3ns (genuine, degenerate, and doubly degenerate).
>>
>> ET: I think we are back to quibbling over terminology purity.
>>
>> It is not just about terminology, it is about the underlying concepts.
>>
>> ET: There is only one relationship within the Representamen; - that ‘in
>> itself’, whereas in the Object, there are two - the Dynamic and Immediate’.
>>
>> This exhibits additional confusion--the dynamic object and immediate object
>> are not two relations, they are two correlates. Likewise, the final
>> interpretant, dynamical interpretant, and immediate interpretant are not
>> three relations, they are three correlates.
>>
>> ET: And I think one has to be clear of the meaning of ’sign’..where in some
>> parts of Peirce’s work, he means this to refer to only the Representamen and
>> at other times, to the whole triad. The refusal to acknowledge this- I think
>> causes a lot of analytic problems.
>>
>> Would you provide me with his texts where he explicitly uses the term "sign"
>> to refer to "the whole triad" instead of its first correlate? Of course not,
>> because there are no such texts, as we conclusively established several
>> months ago (https://list.iu.edu/sympa/arc/peirce-l/2024-09/msg00048.html).
>> The refusal to acknowledge this, I think, causes a lot of analytic problems.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
>> Structural Engineer, Synechist Philosopher, Lutheran Christian
>> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt> / twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt
>> <http://twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 7:56 AM Edwina Taborsky <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> JAS,list
>>>
>>> I don’t think that you can logically conclude that because I say that I
>>> don’t understand Gary R’s vector analysis, that I also don’t understand
>>> ‘any application of Peirce’s phaneroscopic categories. Understanding the
>>> one does not logically include/exclude the other.
>>>
>>> Furthermore - I don’t define the Pericean categories as merely for 1903
>>> ’sign classification’ - but- my outlines of the categories show that they
>>> are the basis for his analysis of semiosic and phaneroscopic functionality.
>>>
>>> And I don’t get your point
>>> The point here is that once phaneroscopic analysis of the genuine triadic
>>> relation of mediating aligns the sign with 1ns, the object with 2ns, and
>>> the interpretant with 3ns, the directionality of the real and continuous
>>> process of semiosis--always from the object through the sign toward the
>>> interpretant--conforms to his vector of determination (2ns→1ns→3ns).
>>> How can you do such a thing? Your reliance on ’phaneroscopic analysis’ as
>>> the utltimate authority doesn’t provide enough information for such an
>>> assertion - which nullifies the functionality of the categories. You have a
>>> view of the categories which seems, to me, ungrounded in his writings.
>>> Would you provide me with his outline where he writes that a triad with a
>>> DO correlate in 2ns produces a Representamen in 1ns and Interpretants
>>> operative in 3ns?
>>>
>>> I am aware of your previous temporal analysis. You say that it is
>>> ‘different but equally valid’ - and I continue to disagree with such a
>>> conclusion.
>>>
>>> Edwina
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2025 at 8:07 AM Edwina Taborsky <[email protected]
>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>> JAS, Helmut, list
>>>
>>> I think were are back to quibbling over terminology purity…..
>>>
>>> I agree with Helmut that the sign [ aka Representamen] is, as a correlate.
>>> [aka an integral member] of the triad, ..is a relation - because it
>>> functions as a relationship!!
>>>
>>> I also disagree with your assertion that it is, as the First correlate of
>>> the operative semiotic process….also the ’simplest’ which you define within
>>> the categorical definition - an error, I maintain. There is only one
>>> relationship within the Representamen; - that ‘in itself’, whereas in the
>>> Object, there are two - the Dynamic and Immediate’..and …but I note that
>>> the categories can operate ‘freely’ in them…
>>>
>>> And I think one has to be clear of the meaning of ’sign’..where in some
>>> parts of Peirce’s work, he means this to refer to only the Representamen
>>> and at other times, to the whole triad. The refusal to acknowledge this- I
>>> think causes a lot of analytic problems.
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