Dear list,
This all sounds Relative..
But if one were to ask of the utterer,
“Why do you do what you do? What is the good in it?”,
what would he say?
.. because Peirce? But Peirce is hard.
And let us ask what we mean by calling a thing *hard*.
For What is first for us and what is first by nature are and are not the
same.
But what is first for us is not first in nature.
With best wishes,
Jerry R
On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 2:42 PM, Gary Richmond <gary.richm...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Jon, Edwina, list,
>
> Jon wrote:
>
>
> JAS: I find it misleading to say that Peirce "put the Interpretant first"
> in CP 2.254. . . As such, the first trichotomy provides the noun in each
> of the class names, while the other two trichotomies supply the modifying
> adjectives; and it is only because adjectives always come *before* nouns
> in English that the S-FI and S-DO terms precede the S term. In another
> language (e.g., Spanish) where adjectives can come *after* the nouns that
> they modify, one would presumably refer to a Sinsign Indexical Rhematic.
>
>
> I disagree. As I just wrote in response to Edwina, it is my understanding
> that Peirce named the 10 classes in the Order of Involution, necessarily
> beginning with the Interpretant. Since I associate the Interpretant with
> 3ns, Object with 2ns, and the Sign itself with 1ns, this seems simply the
> ilnvolutional order of naming them as 3ns involves 2ns involves 1ns == I
> involves O involves S. In my view, they would have been named in this order
> even had Peirce been Spanish speaking.
>
>
> JAS: I also find it misleading to suggest that the Sign/Representamen
> comes first in semiosis. As I have noted recently, since the Sign *mediates
> between*the Object and Interpretant, the "directionality" is instead
> *from *the Object *through *the Sign *to *the Interpretant.
>
>
> Of course I completely agree.
>
> JAS: Moreover, the order of (logical/semeiotic) determination per EP 2:481
> is not DO-IO-S-II-DI-FI, but DO-IO-S-FI-DI-II; the Destinate Interpretant
> is the Final Interpretant and the Explicit Interpretant is the Immediate
> Interpretant, not the other way around.
>
>
> While I have *tended *to agree with your schema, I think it might be
> helpful for those following these grammatical discussions if you were to
> explain your understanding of the "logical order of determination" ("the
> Destinate Interpretant is the Final Interpretant and the Explicit
> Interpretant is the Immediate Interpretant, not the other way around") as
> at first blush it may seem counterintuitive (it certainly did to me!)
>
> JAS: Finally, while Peirce's Categories do not directly apply to Sign
> classification, they are reflected in the three Universes of Possibles,
> Existents, and Necessitants by which Signs are divided in each of the ten
> trichotomies of his 1908 taxonomy.
>
>
> If one associates, as I do, the Sign with 1ns (the simplest), the Object
> with 2ns (the middling complexity), and the Interpretant with 3ns (the most
> complex), then there is at least a double categorial involvement, that for
> each correlate (e.g. icon/index/symbol) and that of the involution of each
> sign class as noted earlier. Indeed, I find at least one, perhaps two other
> ways in which the categories may play a part in the structuring of the
> diagram of the 10 classes. But that's a discussion for another day.
>
> Best,
>
> Gary
>
>
> *Gary Richmond*
> *Philosophy and Critical Thinking*
> *Communication Studies*
> *LaGuardia College of the City University of New York*
>
> *718 482-5690*
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 3:46 PM Jon Alan Schmidt <jonalanschm...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Edwina, Cecile, List:
>>
>> I find it misleading to say that Peirce "put the Interpretant first" in
>> CP 2.254. The three trichotomies of his 1903 taxonomy correspond to the
>> Sign *itself *as Qualisign/Sinsign/Legisign, the *relation* of the Sign
>> to its (Dynamic) Object as Icon/Index/Symbol, and the *relation *of the
>> Sign to its (Final) Interpretant as Rheme/Dicent/Argument. As such, the
>> first trichotomy provides the noun in each of the class names, while the
>> other two trichotomies supply the modifying adjectives; and it is only
>> because adjectives always come *before* nouns in English that the S-FI
>> and S-DO terms precede the S term. In another language (e.g., Spanish)
>> where adjectives can come *after* the nouns that they modify, one would
>> presumably refer to a Sinsign Indexical Rhematic.
>>
>> I also find it misleading to suggest that the Sign/Representamen comes
>> first in semiosis. As I have noted recently, since the Sign *mediates
>> between* the Object and Interpretant, the "directionality" is instead *from
>> *the Object *through *the Sign *to *the Interpretant. Moreover, the
>> order of (logical/semeiotic) determination per EP 2:481 is not
>> DO-IO-S-II-DI-FI, but DO-IO-S-FI-DI-II; the Destinate Interpretant is the
>> Final Interpretant and the Explicit Interpretant is the Immediate
>> Interpretant, not the other way around.
>>
>> Finally, while Peirce's Categories do not directly apply to Sign
>> classification, they are reflected in the three Universes of Possibles,
>> Existents, and Necessitants by which Signs are divided in each of the ten
>> trichotomies of his 1908 taxonomy.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA
>> Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman
>> www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:59 PM, Edwina Taborsky <tabor...@primus.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Cecile, list
>>>
>>> I refer to 2.254 - I don't know why his outline puts the Interpretant,
>>> or, Conclusion, first in the 'name' eg a Rhematic Indexical Sinsign.
>>>
>>> After all, his semiosic format is actually quite syllogistic, with the
>>> major premiss [Representamen] as 'first in line of action/authority',
>>> followed by the input from the minor premiss or Dynamic Object
>>> data....leading to the conclusion/Interpretant.
>>>
>>> My point is that this outline of order, and any outline of order such as
>>> his order-of-determination [DO-IO-R-II-DI-FI] should not be confused with
>>> the modal categories of Firstness, Secondness, Thirdness - which are not
>>> ordinal but categorical or descriptive.
>>>
>>> Edwina
>>>
>>> On Wed 29/08/18 9:27 AM , Cécile Ménieu-Cosculluela
>>> cecile.coscullu...@univ-pau.fr sent:
>>>
>>> Edwina, Jeff, Stephen, List,
>>>
>>> I appreciate your answers. Thank you. I'm now wondering why CP 2.254
>>> could be interpreted as meaning that Peirce put the interpretant first, as
>>> mentioned in Edwina's post that says:
>>>
>>> In Peirce's ten classes of signs - see 2.254, he actually puts the
>>> Interpretant first, followed by the Object, and last - the Representamen!
>>>
>>> CP 2.254 The three trichotomies of Signs result together in dividing
>>> Signs into TEN CLASSES OF SIGNS, of which numerous subdivisions have to be
>>> considered. The ten classes are as follows: First: A Qualisign [e.g., a
>>> feeling of "red"] is any quality in so far as it is a sign. Since a quality
>>> is whatever it is positively in itself, a quality can only denote an object
>>> by virtue of some common ingredient or similarity; so that a Qualisign is
>>> necessarily an Icon. Further, since a quality is a mere logical
>>> possibility, it can only be interpreted as a sign of essence, that is, as a
>>> Rheme.
>>>
>>> Also, it seems to me that the order of semiosic actions does refer to
>>> the modal categories (if by "modal categories" we mean the categories of
>>> the modes of being of firstness, secondness, and thirdness) so I don't get
>>> the point you're making here, Edwina:
>>>
>>> note, that the terms of First, Second, Third do NOT refer to the modal
>>> categories, but to the order of semiosic actions
>>>
>>> Best regards to you all.
>>>
>>> Cécile
>>> Cécile Ménieu-Cosculluela, Ph.D.
>>> Associate Professor of English
>>>
>>> [image: Logo Université de Pau et des pays de l'Adour]
>>> <http://www.univ-pau.fr/>
>>> Collège Sciences Sociales et Humanités
>>> Avenue du Doyen Poplawski
>>> BP 1160 - 64013 PAU
>>> FRANCE
>>> http://www.univ-pau.fr
>>>
>>>
>
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