Edwina, List: ET: ... I think that your outline is more of a Shannon communication system than a semiosic system.
It is *Peirce's *outline--I quoted him directly--so this allegation is patently false. ET: In other words, I don't see the point of defining a sign/representamen as only something that "represents its object to its interpretant'..that 'mediates between its Object and its Interpretant'. To me, such an action reduces the Representamen to an iconic or indexical action and ignores the open non-local powers of the symbolic action of Mind. Those are *Peirce's *descriptions, and you went on to *quote *him saying essentially the same thing--"A sign, or representamen, is something which stands to somebody for something in some respect or capacity" (CP 2.228; 1903). This does not *reduce *the Sign in any way, it *defines *what a Sign is and does. Regards, Jon S. On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 12:35 PM Edwina Taborsky <[email protected]> wrote: > Jon, list > > 1] My point is that the "f" function [Representamen] is a generality and > thus, is capable of producing a different Interpretant "y" each time. Of > course, if the function adheres to one set of laws and is constrained by > them, then, it will produce a similar result [I'd define this as occurring > when the Representamen is in a mode of 2-2 or even 3-1, or Thirdness as > Firstness, which produces an iconic result. Both 3-3 and 3-2 are capable of > producing a diverse result/Interpretant. > > So, I don't see the function of f[x]=y as static, since I'm including the > Peircean categories in its composition and action. > > 2] With regard to your rejection of the semiosic process [which I term the > Sign] transforming data into information, I think that your outline is more > of a Shannon communication system than a semiosic system. The point of a > triadic process - which includes that mediative node and the three > categories, is that mediation as an action of generalizing input data from > the DO does indeed transform that raw data into a unique Interpretant. This > Interpretant can be different in its nature depending on the nature of the > mediation of the Representamen. So- that black spot I see in the sky can > be: a bird, a plane, or Superman. > > Or, an infant's digestive system [the Representamen] cannot digest the > input DO [cow's milk] and transform it into nutrients [DI]. > > Therefore, the Representamen must include the capacity for growth, > development, evolution of its capacity to 'interpret' or be cognizant of > the DO. A Representamen functioning in the two more complex types of > Thirdness - can do just this. > > A system that lacks such a mediative process, freezes input data from the > DO at that time and in that place [this is localization which prevents the > development of non-local correlations which enable growth of the mediative > system]. This would be a Representamen in the mode of Secondness or > Firstness. > > In other words, I don't see the point of defining a sign/representamen as > only something that "represents its object to its interpretant'..that > 'mediates between its Object and its Interpretant'. To me, such an action > reduces the Representamen to an iconic or indexical action and ignores the > open non-local powers of the symbolic action of Mind. > > My interest is in the adaptive powers of the full Sign, and particularly, > in the function of the Representamen as Mind. > > "The highest kind of symbol is one which signifies a growth, or > self-development, of thought" 4.9 > > "A sign, or representamen, is something which stands to somebody for > something in some respect or capacity. It addresses somebody, that is, > creates in the mind of that person an equivalent sign, or perhaps a more > developed sign" [2.228 my emphasis] > > Without such powers, then, adaptation and evolution of the universe - > which includes its cognitive powers, would be, I think, impossible. > > Edwina > > On Fri 19/04/19 12:43 PM , Jon Alan Schmidt [email protected] sent: > > Edwina, List: > > I appreciate the explanation, but the struggle that I continue to have > with this approach is that in my mind, mathematical functions are static, > even when used to model phenomena that are dynamic. The equation f(x)=y > entails that given the same input, the function will always produce the > same output; i.e., the transformation is deterministic, rather than > generative. For example, if f(x)=y=2x^2-3x+1, and x=3, then (necessarily) > y=10; no other result is ever possible. This is true no matter how > complex and non-linear the equation for f(x) might be; and what would ever > prompt that equation itself to evolve over time, rather than remaining > the same? > > I agree that the function of a Sign is not simply moving data from one > site to another, but it is also not transforming data into information. > Rather, in Peirce's words, a Sign is "a Medium for the communication of a > Form," such that "in respect to the Form communicated, the Sign produces > upon the Interpretant an effect similar to that which the Object itself > would under favorable circumstances" (EP 2:544n22; 1906). In other words, > a Sign does not take something from its Object (input) and turn it into > something different (output) that is its Interpretant--it represents or stands > for its Object to its Interpretant; i.e., it mediates between its Object > and its Interpretant. > > Regards, > > Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USA > Professional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran Layman > www.LinkedIn.com/in/JonAlanSchmidt - twitter.com/JonAlanSchmidt > > On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 8:29 AM Edwina Taborsky <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Helmut, list >> >> I think it's right to use the term 'function' with regard to the >> semiosic triadic process. The 'function' shows that the mediative process >> of the Representamen is not a static action of passively moving raw data, >> but a generalizing act that actually changes the raw data. This also means >> that the rules embodied within the Representamen can change; they can >> evolve and adapt. >> >> Without such an acknowledgement that the mediative process of the >> Semiosic triad is a generative rather than static action, then, adaptation >> and evolution - whether it be of language or of biological organisms, would >> be impossible. >> >> Therefore your knife, as an object, can have multiple Interpretants, via >> the mediative functional relation of the Representamen. That object is able >> to function within a diversity of interactions and this enables diversity >> of existence and thought. >> >> Biologically, an object with only ONE Interpretant is the least capable >> of preserving matter/energy on this planet. That is, an object with >> multiple Interpretants contributes to a rich and diverse domain. A fish, as >> a material object, has the Interpretant result of producing many more fish. >> It also has the Interpretant result of eating the plankton and bacteria and >> cleaning the water. And also, of providing food for the predator objects >> that eat it. >> >> A meadow, which has a huge number of biological objects networked with >> each other is far richer and more powerful in maintaining matter - than a >> peat bog with its few limited species. >> >> The point of defining the semiosic triadic process as a function, is to >> explain, in a non-verbal example, how this process is not one that simply >> moves data from one site to another site [O->R->I] but actually, at the >> nodal site of the Representamen, actually changes this raw data into >> information by adding, changing, transforming it within its stored laws. >> That is a powerful process. >> >> So- I will maintain my view that explaining the semiosic triad as a >> function of f[x]=y is a valid examination. >> >> Edwina >> >
----------------------------- PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to [email protected] with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. More at http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm .
