Gary, list
I agree to you and the quotations, except literally to "emergence of time", because "emergence", I guess, is something that is commonly understood as an event in an existing unidirectional time continuum.
Time, after Einstein, is connected with space in the "time-space-continuum". While time is unidirectional, and has one dimension, space is not, and has three. Time and space can however be transformed into each other, if high speeds close to light velocity play a role.
Einstein supposed a fourth space dimension, in which the other three are bent, bending radius being or representing gravitation.
On the other hand, gravitation is supposed to be a force like the three others (electromagnetic, weak and strong nuclear), and, like them, is done by messenger particles, in this case gravitons.
Anyway, this situation might seem like something quite special, this special case enabling that what we call existence and things, entities, events, whatever, everything that we know from our experiences.
Maybe, time as we know it, unidirectional, is a special case of time, so "time" (as we know it) "did" emerge according to its own point of view, but is just (accidentially? volitionally?) existing in its unidirectional order from the point of view of chaotic time as a special case. As chaotic time is not unidirectional, from its standpoint there is no date of creation of this special case our universe is. The evolution of our universe is only happening in it (our universe), but in the chaos it is a side-effect that is always there. I guess, in the chaos, due to multidimensional time, there are no things and events for necessarily identifyable targets, but all is superposition of other things and events. This also works as secondness, though not in the way we know it. This default radical otherness, dependence on, and reference to something other, may poetically be called unconditional love, a divine secondness, but chaos from our point of view. It is not in contradiction to our world, as our world is a marginal side-effect taking place in it.
That was just some experimental megalomaniac complete bullshit, but why not, as long as no harm is done, best,
Helmut
Helmut, Jon, List,
I had meant to post this earlier, but then forgot to when I got caught up in a number of other things. Perhaps it still has some relevance. In the post to which Helmut was responding, Jon had quoted N. Guardiano (adding, in brackets, references to 1ns and 3ns).
NG: The blackboard when blank describes a spatial continuum [3ns] open to all kinds of possible figures that may be drawn [1ns]. Contemplating this ontological inclusiveness of the origin of the universe, I note here that Peirce’s description of the origin as "pure zero" and "nothing" is intended only in the sense that it consists in "no individual thing, no compulsion, outward nor inward, no law. [Nevertheless, i]t is the germinal nothing, in which the whole universe is involved or foreshadowed." [CP 6.217; 1898] It is hardly nothing in the common sense, then; or, as Peirce says, it is not "[t]he nothing of negation [that] is the nothing of death, which comes second to, or after, everything." [ibid] Rather, the "pure zero" is the possibility of everything: "the whole universe" or every particular existent universe in potential. (p. 321)
He then commented on this passage:
JAS: The "nothing" of "pure zero" corresponds to "the clean blackboard" (CP 6.203; 1898), as well as the blank Sheet of Assertion--a vast continuum that is utterly indeterminate and always has room for further determination, no matter how much the Graphist scribes upon it. This is confirmed, finally, in Peirce's own brief commentary on the initial verses of Genesis.
CSP: It is remarkable that though subconsciously yet he [the author] has perceived the need of every element which was needed for the first day. His tohu wabohu, terra inanis et vacua is the indeterminate germinal Nothing. His Spiritus Dei ferebatur super aquas is consciousness. His Lux is the world of quality. His fiat lux is an arbitrary reaction. His divisit lucem a tenebris is the recognition of the necessary duality. His vidit Deus lucem quod esset bona is the waking consciousness. Finally, his factumque est vespere et mane, dies unus is the emergence of Time. (NEM 4:138; 1898)
I thought then that it might be helpful to add a translation of the (mostly) Latin above. It's a bit rusty; but perhaps someone here can provide an even better translation. I've put my translations of phrases into Italics.
CSP: It is remarkable that though subconsciously yet he [the author] has perceived the need of every element which was needed for the first day. After Tohu wabohu (which Hebrew phrase Peirce elsewhere translates as Chaos), void and empty land is the uncommitted germinal Nothing. His the spirit of God moved upon the waters is consciousness. His Light is the world of quality. His let there be light, is an arbitrary reaction. His divided the light from darkness is the recognition of the necessary duality. His He saw the light that it was good the waking consciousness. Finally, his And the evening and the morning were the first day is the emergence of Time. (NEM 4: 138; 1898)
I tend to agree with Peirce's, Guardiano's, and Jon's analyses.
Best,
Gary
Gary Richmond
Philosophy and Critical Thinking
Communication Studies
LaGuardia College of the City University of New York
On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 8:27 PM Jon Alan Schmidt <[email protected]> wrote:
Helmut, List:HR: I guess "random chaos" would be the correct translation of "tohuvabohu" in the Bible (Genesis, is it, "In the begining God created heaven and earth, and the earth was ...(tohuvabohu)"), other than the sometimes incorrect translations such as "vast and empty". But, if the earth was chaotic, this chaos should have implied matter, "earth".Fortunately, we do not have to speculate about Peirce's understanding of that Hebrew _expression_, which I have usually seen translated as "formless and void." There are at least three places where he employed it himself.CSP: I may mention that my chief avocation in the last ten years has been to develop my cosmology. This theory is that the evolution of the world is hyperbolic, that is, proceeds from one state of things in the infinite past, to a different state of things in the infinite future. The state of things in the infinite past is chaos, tohu bohu, the nothingness of which consists in the total absence of regularity. The state of things in the infinite future is death, the nothingness of which consists in the complete triumph of law and absence of all spontaneity. Between these, we have on our side a state of things in which there is some absolute spontaneity counter to all law, and some degree of conformity to law, which is constantly on the increase owing to the growth of habit. (CP 8.316; 1891 Aug 29)This clearly describes what Guardiano identified as the evolution of states in Peirce's complex cosmological scheme. The ideal limit "in the infinite past" is "nothingness" as "the total absence of regularity."CSP: In that state of absolute nility, in or out of time, that is, before or after the evolution of time, there must then have been a tohu bohu of which nothing whatever affirmative or negative was true universally. There must have been, therefore, a little of everything conceivable. (CP 6.490; 1908)This reflects what I have pointed out about Peirce's concept of the "nothing" at the beginning of the universe as indeterminacy (3ns) in accordance with EP 2:322 (1904). Guardiano cites that passage in an endnote referenced from the following paragraph.NG: The blackboard when blank describes a spatial continuum [3ns] open to all kinds of possible figures that may be drawn [1ns]. Contemplating this ontological inclusiveness of the origin of the universe, I note here that Peirce’s description of the origin as "pure zero" and "nothing" is intended only in the sense that it consists in "no individual thing, no compulsion, outward nor inward, no law. [Nevertheless, i]t is the germinal nothing, in which the whole universe is involved or foreshadowed." [CP 6.217; 1898] It is hardly nothing in the common sense, then; or, as Peirce says, it is not "[t]he nothing of negation [that] is the nothing of death, which comes second to, or after, everything." [ibid] Rather, the "pure zero" is the possibility of everything: "the whole universe" or every particular existent universe in potential. (p. 321)
The "nothing" of "pure zero" corresponds to "the clean blackboard" (CP 6.203; 1898), as well as the blank Sheet of Assertion--a vast continuum that is utterly indeterminate and always has room for further determination, no matter how much the Graphist scribes upon it. This is confirmed, finally, in Peirce's own brief commentary on the initial verses of Genesis.CSP: It is remarkable that though subconsciously yet he [the author] has perceived the need of every element which was needed for the first day. His tohu wabohu, terra inanis et vacua is the indeterminate germinal Nothing. His Spiritus Dei ferebatur super aquas is consciousness. His Lux is the world of quality. His fiat lux is an arbitrary reaction. His divisit lucem a tenebris is the recognition of the necessary duality. His vidit Deus lucem quod esset bona is the waking consciousness. Finally, his factumque est vespere et mane, dies unus is the emergence of Time. (NEM 4:138; 1898)Andrew Robinson has offered some fascinating suggestions for understanding the traditional Christian doctrine of the Trinity in terms of Peirce's Categories, citing a lecture by Martin Luther on these same verses; but that is obviously a topic for another thread at another time.Regards,Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USAProfessional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran LaymanOn Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 3:30 PM Helmut Raulien <[email protected]> wrote:Jon, list,refering to:NG: The primordial soup of Peircean cosmogony, although so remote as to be on the fringe of existence and comprehensibility, is best understood as a pure state of feeling, that is, of psychic firstness, spontaneously sporting in random chaos. For Peirce, such spontaneity is the essence of mind, which is the principle of life or catalyst of cosmic development and order as we know it. (p. 196)I guess "random chaos" would be the correct translation of "tohuvabohu" in the Bible (Genesis, is it, "In the begining God created heaven and earth, and the earth was ...(tohuvabohu)"), other than the sometimes incorrect translations such as "vast and empty". But, if the earth was chaotic, this chaos should have implied matter, "earth". If mind is primordial is impossible to say, not knowing the nature of God: Is He pure mind, or material too?Different it is in Greek mythology (according to Wikipedia): Here "chaos" means abyss, or emptiness, or nothingness, the state before heaven and earth had been separated. In this case, "chaos" does not imply matter.In Greek mythology, heaven, earth, and the gods "emerged" from the chaos. This sounds like Hegel or so, it is an atheistic creation concept. Nevertheless, this self-organized emergence might be interpreted like primordial mind, with mind being just a seed, a tautological necessity, or a big bang-singularity. But this interpretation is somehow far-fetched, or just one option out of two: You might as well, or even more reasonably, interpret it the way like that mind and matter did co-emerge out of "the" nothing.And Guardiano and Peirce? What do they mean by "chaos"? A primordial soup sounds like containing matter. A primordial feeling sounds like not, but who feels the feeling, if not a material being, and what could be able to arouse a feeling, if not something material?Best,Helmut
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