Ted W: "Superstition" and "prejudice" were characteristic of the 
"individuality" dominant in the context in which the "revolution" took place.

Marx's claim is that such an "individuality" "causes" "a more or less 
centralised despotism". "Despotism" "fetters" the development of 
"enlightenment"; it doesn't facilitate it.
 
^^^^^
CB: However, _in fact_ in the case
of the SU, superstition and
prejudice were substantially
eradicated, i.e. "enlightenment
was in fact facilitated.


Are you claiming that the Stalinist repressions and forced collectivizations 
were not only not "despotic", they were aspects of "socialist" relations in 
Marx's sense, i.e. aspects of non-despotic relations from which all barriers to 
full individual "enlightenment" had been removed so that, say, they facilitated 
the development of an "individuality" in the USSR for which the "superstition" 
and "prejudice" characteristic of the Russian church no longer had any appeal?
 
^^^^
CB: I'm claiming that despite
the Stalinist repressions and
 forced collectivizations,
( and also in part because
of some of the Stalinist
policies that were based 
in Marxism) the
masses of peasants were embued with
and educated
in an atheist, scientific and
and internationalist worldview,
that was extremely anti-superstitious 
and unprejudiced. The evidence
is overwhelming that the Soviet
population in the 20's through
the 80's was highly educated
in science, mathematics,multiple languages
and world culture. There was
tremendous ethnic and racial
integration through out the Union
compared with the old Russian
empire. Not even
the bourgeois propagandists deny
most of this.
All of that is the complete
anti-thesis of "superstition"
and "prejudice". There was a giant
step forward in "Enlightenment" of 
the Russians and Peoples of the
old Russian Empire. Are you
denying this ? 


This is inconsistent with Marx's claims. "Socialist" relations in his sense 
could only have been created in 1917 if the "masses" of Russian peasants had 
been sufficiently free of "superstition" and "prejudice" to be able to create 
them.
 
^^^^
CB: Well, there may
be an element of the 
chicken-egg problem,
but whatever Marx claimed
( and he seemed to also
say famously the exact 
opposite with respect
to specifically the 
Russian peasnatry , 
as you quoted earlier)
and whatever the initial
situation in 1917, the
Soviet Union was extraordinarily
successful, in fact, during
its history at eradicating
"superstition" and "prejudice"
among the masses of Russians
and other Soviet peoples.


How do you explain the social relations that issued from the break down of the 
USSR? Were these the creation of a fully "enlightened" "individuality" only 
prevented by the international context from implementing "the true realm of 
freedom"? Is Russian "individuality" now fully liberated from "superstition" 
and "prejudice" so that, for example, the Russian orthodox church has no appeal?
 
^^^^
CB: I don't know
if they are fully
enlightened, but
they seem to be
enormously enlightened
and possibly more
enlightened than
the individuality
in the US , which
is substantially
marred by superstition
and prejudice.
It would seem that
the social relations
and consciousneses
of individuals
in Russia are sufficiently
enlightened such 
that large sections
of the population are
able to 
conduct adequate production
and distribution without
any "wages", as was often
reported during the years
after the fall of the SU.
This suggests that the
individuals who are a 
product of Soviet Russia
are , indeed, approaching
the borders of the "true
realm of freedom" in 
which there is a free 
association of free 
producers.
 
^^^^^


The connection to Kant of Marx's claims about the relation of "superstition" 
and "prejudice" to "enlightenment" and "despotism" and of the "universal 
standpoint" required for "enlightenment" to "real connections" is found in 
Kant's discussion, in the Critique of Judgement, of "superstition" and 
"prejudice” and of "enlightenment" and its relation to what he calls the 
"sensus communis".
 
^^^^
CB: Well, there' despotism
and there's despotism.
When the despot enforces
a Marxist worldview, even
if a tad vulgar, on the
masses, the result is quite
different than when a despot
enforces some kind of superstitious/
religious
and prejudice historically 
derived .
And as we see with the US,
democratic rule does not
guarantee lack of superstitious/
religious and prejudice worldview
in the mass population.
 
^^^^^^


In particular, Kant claims that “emancipation from superstition is called 
enlightenment” and that "the condition of blindness into which superstition 
[which 'deserves pre-eminently (in sensu eminenti) to be called a prejudice'] 
puts one, which is as much as demands from one as an obligation, makes the need 
of being led by others, and consequently the passive state of the reason, 
pre-eminently conspicuous."
 
^^^
CB: However, "others"
can lead you out of 
superstition and prejudice
if they are Marxists.
 
^^^^^


"by the name sensus communis is to be understood the idea of a public sense, 
i.e., a critical faculty which in its reflective act takes account (a priori) 
of the mode of representation of everyone else, in order, as it were, to weigh 
its judgement with the collective reason of mankind, and thereby avoid the 
illusion arising from subjective and personal conditions which could readily be 
taken for objective, an illusion that would exert a prejudicial influence upon 
its judgement. This is accomplished by weighing the judgement, not so much with 
actual, as rather with the merely possible, judgements of others, and by 
putting ourselves in the position of everyone else, as the result of a mere 
abstraction from the limitations which contingently affect our own estimate. 
This, in turn, is effected by so far as possible letting go the element of 
matter, i.e., sensation, in our general state of representative activity, and 
confining attention to the formal
 peculiarities of our representation or general state of representative 
activity. Now it may seem that this operation of reflection is too artificial 
to be attributed to the faculty which we call common sense. But this is an 
appearance due only to its expression in abstract formulae. In itself nothing 
is more natural than to abstract from charm and emotion where one is looking 
for a judgement intended to serve as a universal rule.
"While the following maxims of common human understanding do not properly come 
in here as constituent parts of the critique of taste, they may still serve to 
elucidate its fundamental propositions. They are these: (I) to think for 
oneself; (2) to think from the standpoint of everyone else; (3) always to think 
consistently. The first is the maxim of unprejudiced thought, the second that 
of enlarged thought, the third that of consistent thought. The first is the 
maxim of a never-passive reason. To be given to such passivity, consequently to 
heteronomy of reason, is called prejudice; and the greatest of all prejudices 
is that of fancying nature not to be subject to rules which the understanding 
by virtue of its own essential laws lays at its basis, i.e., superstition. 
Emancipation from superstition is called enlightenment*; for although this term 
applies also to emancipation from prejudices generally, still superstition 
deserves pre-eminently (in sensu
 eminenti) to be called a prejudice. For the condition of blindness into which 
superstition puts one, which is as much as demands from one as an obligation, 
makes the need of being led by others, and consequently the passive state of 
the reason, pre-eminently conspicuous. As to the second maxim belonging to our 
habits of thought, we have quite got into the way of calling a man narrow 
(narrow, as opposed to being of enlarged mind) whose talents fall short of what 
is required for employment upon work of any magnitude (especially that 
involving intensity). But the question here is not one of the faculty of 
cognition, but of the mental habit of making a final use of it. This, however 
small the range and degree to which man's natural endowments extend, still 
indicates a man of enlarged mind: if he detaches himself from the subjective 
personal conditions of his judgement, which cramp the minds of so many others, 
and reflects upon his own judgement from a
 universal standpoint (which he can only determine by shifting his ground to 
the standpoint of others). The third maxim-that, namely, of consistent 
thought-is the hardest of attainment, and is only attainable by the union of 
both the former, and after constant attention to them has made one at home in 
their observance. We may say: The first of these is the maxim of understanding, 
the second that of judgement, the third of that reason."
<http://philosophy.eserver.org/kant/critique-of-judgment.txt>
 
^^^^^
CB: Well, thank you for that.  I'll
cogitate on it, critically, thinking
for myself ( I wouldn't want to passively 
 just be led by Kant)
 without prejudice or 
superstition.  Preliminarlily, I'd
say that a scientific and atheistic
worldview, and substantially suppression
of the Russian Orthodox church would
significantly move the Russian masses
along the path to achieving this 
standard. However, I'd also note
that though the US has for a over
two hundred years had a democracy
and capitalist relations of production,
it is not at all clear that most
of its population would meet this
Kantian standard.
 
^^^^^^^


"superstition ... rears in the mind, not reverence for the sublime, but dread 
and apprehension of the all-powerful Being to whose will terror-stricken man 
sees himself subjected, yet without according Him due honour. From this nothing 
can arise but grace-begging and vain adulation, instead of a religion 
consisting in a good life.
"http://philosophy.eserver.org/kant/critique-of-judgment.txt


Ted
 
^^^^^
CB: Don't you think
the next step is to
give up religion 
altogether ? That
Kant is something
of a dualist ?
What about critiques by
 Hegel
and Feuerbach ?

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