On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 19:15, David B. Shemano <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yes, many societies/organizations manage to solve such problems without wage > labor. My children do many things around the house they do not "want" to do > without payment of money, However, there is no claim that my house is a > socialist democracy, that my children live in the realm of freedom and not > necessity. > Actually, Diedre McCloskey claimed that University students were unable to understand the price system because they had for too long lived under the socialism of their parents. I guess the democracy is another thing. I would note that the problem you are trying to tackle has long been discussed. In the seventeenth century, long before Marx, Winstanley (leader of the Diggers) wrote a tract called "The Laws of Freedom." There he said there would need to be laws to make his socialist state function. The other possibility was to have a cultural framework that would instill the values of this society--a possibility that might come over the long term through education and training. He made this observation in the midst of the English society when it was being educated and trained for capitalism, basically noting that, if people were going to be forced to give up their commoning culture of the past, it might as well be for a better life. It's also noted that many of the Levellers were perfectly fine with having no democracy if they could be guaranteed land on which they would be able to live. Instead they were crushed by the counterrevolution (or two) along with any other movement that didn't subscribe to the new landowners version of capitalist property relations--but hey, that's just the way it goes, eh? You gotta break a few eggs to make that omelet--break them and then forget aaaall about them. When you begin from the premise that people are naturally programmed to act like the demons capitalism has made them, it is difficult to imagine an alternative, no matter what the mechanics. When you forget the violence it took to enculturate the capitalism that exists--and the continued violence it takes to maintain it--it is easy to point fingers at socialists who might want to force you to clean the toilets in your place of business (since you haven't mentioned it, maybe you have a nice lady at home who does this for you there--I'm going to clean mine tomorrow: company coming). I can assure you, you don't need to worry about who will clean the toilets at your office: I think you should be more worried about who will need a bankruptcy attorney. I'd also note that the problem of shit in a mass society is a public problem no matter what the framework. If you're going to live in that kind of society, someone will have to clean up the shit. And fix the plumbing. And make sure the electricity is working. In fact, a socialist society might just give us a new appreciation for the people who do the latter things rather than the assholes we pour praise on because they rob us blind and buy big yachts with the proceeds--though I guess you'd want to know who would make all the luxury yachts under socialism. It is indeed a question we'd need to think about. After all, even a luxury yacht has a head on it, a head that will fill with shit and piss. Who will design this apparatus? Who will maintain it? Oh the humanity! s _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing list [email protected] https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
