Constituent assemblies would be a good idea, but if they just introduced a system based on elections what is the point - that is a social form that the ruling classes have long been able to dominate. ________________________________ From: [email protected] [[email protected]] on behalf of Tom Walker [[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 5:33 AM To: Progressive Economics Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Capitalism and the 'undeniable' rise in living standards
The _possibility_ of a democratically-organized constituent assembly was prefigured (negatively) in the critique of earlier revolutions and their "thermidors" or "18th Brumaires" and positively by the distinctive measures taken by the Paris Commune -- such as universal suffrage. Historically, it has been the property owners who have been the principle opponents of democracy -- even in the form of universal suffrage. So I suspect there is an element of "expectation by negation" -- people thinking that if we get rid of the die-hard opponents of democracy, the rest will be easy (or at least possible). On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 7:45 PM, David Shemano <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I understand the position that just because what comes after the revolution could be worse than the pre-revolution status quo does not mean you should never engage in revolution. But that does not answer my question, which is what is your evidence that the revolution can result in “democratically organized constituent assemblies.” Is there historical evidence that convinces you it can occur? For example, the Paris Commune? Or are you limited to the theoretical possibility, like there is theoretical possibility that Angelina Jolie might leave Brad Pitt for me? David Shemano From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of Tom Walker Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 6:57 PM To: Progressive Economics Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Capitalism and the 'undeniable' rise in living standards My point being that just because the criteria for what is democratic will never receive universal assent doesn't mean that we have to grant perpetual privilege to a bad status quo. In fact, abject failure of the status quo may be sufficient grounds for experimentation even given the understanding that there is no guarantee those experiments will succeed. On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 6:48 PM, Tom Walker <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: I'm not sure that I would agree that a constituent assembly is a "structure." David. It seems to me it is an action: constituents assemble at the behest of initiatives undertaken by broad popular participation. That action may eventually congeal into a structure. Whether or not such a structure is deemed 'democratic' would be essentially contested. Is a plebiscite -- conceived, administered, financed and manipulated by elites -- "democratic" as long as the majority of the population is "eligible" to register a choice between two offered candidates? On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 5:58 PM, David Shemano <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: Carroll Cox writes: "Anti-capitalist movements at least in principle can/could overthrow capitalist regimes, leading to democratically organized constituent assemblies." There are two statements here. The first is that anti-capitalist movement can overthrow capitalist regimes (i.e., anti-capitalist revolutions can occur). The second statement is that such revolutions can lead to democratic political structures. I am curious about the second statement. In your view (the generic you), what is the evidence for the second statement? This is not intended as a contentious question. The fact that I may disagree with you about whether any specific post-revolutionary political structure is democratic, or an improvement, is irrelevant to the question. The questions is, from your perspective, what is the evidence that supports the statement that anti-capitalist revolutions can lead to democratic political structures? David Shemano _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l -- Cheers, Tom Walker (Sandwichman) -- Cheers, Tom Walker (Sandwichman) _______________________________________________ pen-l mailing list [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l -- Cheers, Tom Walker (Sandwichman)
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