Jamie Stern-Weiner, your question seems pointed my way. Sorry to be slow in
responding.
You posed the question as if it were clear that a significant reduction
in working hours is "unsustainable under capitalism." Significant is
undefined. Others have already pointed out that significant reductions have
occured repeatedly in the past, so hours cuts are clearly sustainable under
capitalism. In fact they are one-way events, unlike tax cuts and other efforts
to battle the pain.
To me it is more interesting to turn your question around to ask
whether capitalism is sustainable after hours are drastically cut. I think the
answer is "No."
And that "no" answer doesn't (necessarily) imply the major crisis that
you mention. Given the current economic regime in the US, a major political
crisis seems, IMO, to be certain relatively soon UNLESS hours are significantly
cut. A prompt cut to a four day week will neither be enough to sustain full
employment nor to make a correction in income distribution sufficient to head
off a political crisis. But it is a begining. As they say on the
advertisements for medicine, there will be side effects.
Romney;s worries about "the 47%" are only the beginning of his
nightmare. (Many on the left, sadly, share Romney's worry.)
Gene
On Sep 14, 2013, at 1:06 PM, Jamie Stern-Weiner wrote:
> Have I got Kliman's plan/program correctly?
> 1. Overthrow capitalism.
> followed by:
> 2. Reduce working hours.
>
> I don't know what his political program is. But I don't think it's an
> unimportant question whether or not significant reductions of working hours,
> and social democratic policies more broadly, are compatible with capitalism
> over the medium- to long-run. One can try to answer that question in its own
> right, in isolation from (related) questions of political strategy.
>
> That said, since you raise it, I've a question regarding the political
> strategic implications of Kliman's economic argument. If it's the case that
> post-work and many other social democratic aspirations are unsustainable
> under capitalism, some here have said that they should be struggled for
> nonetheless, as a process by which workers (and others involved) may come to
> feel their power and perceive, by pushing up against them, the limits of what
> capitalism as a system can accommodate.
>
> OK. My question is, should people organising a struggle for one of these
> limited and unsustainable-under-capitalism reforms, e.g. radically reduced
> working hours, be open and frank about the fact that achieving said demand in
> any long-term way isn't consistent with the current economic system, and
> hence would if insisted upon lead to a major crisis?
>
> If the answer is 'yes', the problem is that I doubt many would sign up to
> measures sold as having the potential to induce economic crisis, at any rate
> in the absence of a confidently-held vision of a comprehensive alternative
> political-economic model. If the answer is 'no', that would be dishonest
> (and, in time, exposed as such).
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 14, 2013 at 8:00 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> Send pen-l mailing list submissions to
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>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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> than "Re: Contents of pen-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Is 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy? (Eugene Coyle)
> 2. Re: Is 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy? (Doug Henwood)
> 3. Re: Is 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy? (Tom Walker)
> 4. Re: Is 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy? (Tom Walker)
> 5. Re: Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work' a
> social democratic fantasy? (Tom Walker)
> 6. Re: Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work' a
> social democratic fantasy? (Carrol Cox)
> 7. Re: Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work' a
> social democratic fantasy? (Perelman, Michael)
> 8. Re: Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work' a
> social democratic fantasy? (Eubulides)
> 9. Re: Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work' a
> social democratic fantasy? (Perelman, Michael)
> 10. Re: Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work' a
> social democratic fantasy? (Julio Huato)
> 11. Re: Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work' a
> social democratic fantasy? (michael perelman)
> 12. Re: Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work' a
> social democratic fantasy? (Eubulides)
> 13. Re: Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work' a
> social democratic fantasy? (michael perelman)
> 14. Re: Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work' a
> social democratic fantasy? (Eubulides)
> 15. Re: Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work' a
> social democratic fantasy? (Tom Walker)
> 16. Unpublished novel by Karl Marx:_ Scorpion and Felix_, A
> Humoristic Novel (c b)
> 17. Buyer?s remorse over the Arab Spring | Louis Proyect: The
> Unrepentant Marxist (Louis Proyect)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 12:00:32 -0700
> From: Eugene Coyle <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Is 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Have I got Kliman's plan/program correctly?
>
> 1. Overthrow capitalism.
>
> followed by:
> 2. Reduce working hours.
>
> Clearly success depends on reversing the schedule. Kliman might read Cynthia
> Kaufman's book, GETTING PAST CAPITALISM or maybe a little Sub-commandante
> Marcos.
>
> Gene
>
>
> On Sep 12, 2013, at 11:09 PM, Jamie Stern-Weiner wrote:
>
> > Andrew Kliman comments sceptically on the 'post-work' debate, responding
> > to, among others, David Graeber, Peter Frase, Chris Maisano and John
> > Quiggin.
> >
> > It's not utopian to dream of radically reduced working hours, he argues.
> > What's utopian is to think it could happen within capitalism.
> >
> > http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/post_work_zombie_social_democracy_with_a_human_face
> >
> > --
> > Jamie Stern-Weiner
> > http://www.newleftproject.org/
> > _______________________________________________
> > pen-l mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:53:57 -0400
> From: Doug Henwood <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Is 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
> On Sep 13, 2013, at 3:00 PM, Eugene Coyle <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Sub-commandante Marcos.
>
> Slavoj Zizek at the Subversive Festival in Zagreb a couple of months ago: "I
> wish you luck with your Cretan commune. Perhaps one day it will become a
> tourist attraction, like the Zapatistas."
>
> Doug
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:34:44 -0700
> From: Tom Walker <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Is 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <CANz+BQyvKBY5TcJay-8GZuF=724i16CM-PoijkmU=m1ffpx...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Always been good with the one-liners. Great name for a band, too: "Zizek
> and the Zagreb Zapatistas."
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 12:53 PM, Doug Henwood <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Sep 13, 2013, at 3:00 PM, Eugene Coyle <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Sub-commandante Marcos.
> >
> > Slavoj Zizek at the Subversive Festival in Zagreb a couple of months ago:
> > "I wish you luck with your Cretan commune. Perhaps one day it will become a
> > tourist attraction, like the Zapatistas."
> >
> > Doug
> > _______________________________________________
> > pen-l mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Tom Walker (Sandwichman)
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 15:41:09 -0700
> From: Tom Walker <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Is 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <canz+bqycfbyqm38gft89mzudyzrz_dnphpwcmfc2jsgnar_...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Wasn't there a South Park underpants theft episode somewhat along these
> lines?
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Eugene Coyle <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Have I got Kliman's plan/program correctly?
> >
> > 1. Overthrow capitalism.
> >
> > followed by:
> > 2. Reduce working hours.
> >
> > Clearly success depends on reversing the schedule. Kliman might read
> > Cynthia Kaufman's book, GETTING PAST CAPITALISM or maybe a little
> > Sub-commandante Marcos.
> >
> > Gene
> >
> >
> > On Sep 12, 2013, at 11:09 PM, Jamie Stern-Weiner wrote:
> >
> > > Andrew Kliman comments sceptically on the 'post-work' debate, responding
> > to, among others, David Graeber, Peter Frase, Chris Maisano and John
> > Quiggin.
> > >
> > > It's not utopian to dream of radically reduced working hours, he argues.
> > What's utopian is to think it could happen within capitalism.
> > >
> > >
> > http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/post_work_zombie_social_democracy_with_a_human_face
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jamie Stern-Weiner
> > > http://www.newleftproject.org/
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > pen-l mailing list
> > > [email protected]
> > > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pen-l mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Tom Walker (Sandwichman)
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 16:22:01 -0700
> From: Tom Walker <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is
> 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <CANz+BQwGjWBUz8ruyRwUGhJ=2bK9XmsKtEt=lum1-vkocef...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> O.K. but the site from Google was a diversion. I still would prefer that
> you consider my comment in the context of Kliman's critique rather than as
> some abstract hypothesis about "transformative reforms." You may recall
> that in Value, Price and Profit, Marx criticized Weston's notion that it
> was futile to struggle for higher wages. Marx concluded his exposition with
> the statement that:
>
> "Trades Unions work well as centers of resistance against the encroachments
> > of capital.They fail partially from an injudicious use of their power. They
> > fail generally from limiting themselves to a guerilla war against the
> > effects of the existing system, instead of simultaneously trying to change
> > it, instead of using their organized forces as a lever for the final
> > emancipation of the working class that is to say the ultimate abolition of
> > the wages system."
>
>
> Thus it wasn't pointless to struggle for higher wages. It just wasn't
> enough. But what's the "next step"? Marx suggested it should be raising the
> banner "Abolish the wages system!" Maybe that was tongue in cheek. But if
> so, a lot of people have taken it at face value and if not it's actually a
> pretty ineffectual idea for a slogan. The average Marxian theoretician --
> let alone the average worker -- doesn't have a clue about what it might
> mean to abolish the wages system. So what would be the point of writing it
> on a banner? Irony?
>
> Elsewhere, Marx talks about the limitation of the working day as a
> "preliminary condition" for improvement and emancipation. This makes more
> sense. It was something that trade unions (and workers outside of trade
> unions) were actually demanding at the time. And it is something that
> highlights the subordination of workers to capital rather than the exchange
> of an "equivalent" (x wages for y labor).
>
> I think there needs to be more ambiguity about demands. What I mean is that
> policies, programs, slogans, demands need to be ambiguous as to whether or
> not they entail a rejection of the capitalist system. My point is that. for
> example, in a labor negotiation the employer (private sector, at least)
> maintains the potential threat of bankruptcy, outsourcing, offshoring etc.
> Against such a catastrophic (but ambiguous) threat, the threat of a work
> stoppage is trivial.
>
> Without the threat of the workers outright rejecting the system, the
> balance of coercion is very uneven exclusively in favor of capital. But on
> the other hand, an overt, unequivocal "threat" that is not acted on ceases
> to be credible.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Carrol Cox <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I was asking you, not google. The latter was merely a preliminary check.
> >
> > I didn't even read very far in the site I quoted from. I knew your meaning
> > must be different, but the quote was a way of narrowing the question.
> >
> > Carrol
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected] [mailto:pen-l-
> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Walker
> > > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 12:58 PM
> > > To: Progressive Economics
> > > Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work'
> > a
> > > social democratic fantasy?
> > >
> > > Better to ask me what I mean than ask Google. Maybe the NSA knows what
> > > I'm thinking but they won't say. Transformative reforms are reforms that
> > > change -- or potentially change -- the "conversation" or the terrain of
> > > struggle.
> > >
> > > Please don't get hung up on the word choice. The Rose Community
> > > Foundation is welcome to use the same words to talk about whatever they
> > > are talking about. What I was commenting on was a critique by Andrew
> > > Kliman, not an announcement from the aforementioned foundation. Either
> > > consider my comment in the context it was presented or ignore it.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Carrol Cox <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom Walker: "This doesn't mean such improvement can go on
> > > indefinitely, but
> > > such improvement as can be achieved has the potential of opening
> > > up other
> > > possibilities. That's the notion of transformative reforms."
> > >
> > > =========
> > >
> > > This concept ("transformative reforms") sounds interesting, but I
> > > would like
> > > to see some clarification of its content. I googled the phrase, but
> > > didn't
> > > see much that fit the present context. One example is attached
> > below
> > > (in
> > > part). I
> > >
> > > Carrol
> > >
> > > ****
> > > Home > Press Releases >
> > > CLF Announces Forward-Thinking Funding Support from Rose
> > > Community
> > > Foundation
> > > CLF Announces Forward-Thinking Funding Support from Rose
> > > Community
> > > Foundation
> > > Posted at June 25, 2013 | 0 Comment
> > >
> > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> > > June 25, 2013
> > > Colorado Legacy Foundation Announces Forward-Thinking Funding
> > > Support from
> > > Rose Community Foundation
> > >
> > > DENVER, CO - Today the Colorado Legacy Foundation (CLF)
> > > announced another
> > > significant investment by Rose Community Foundation to support
> > > CLF's
> > > sustainability. The $300,000 two-year grant will build
> > organizational
> > > capacity to support communications and development, project
> > > management and
> > > collaborative partnerships.
> > >
> > > "Rose Community Foundation has been an integral part of the
> > > success of our
> > > organization. More importantly, they have seeded transformative
> > > reforms
> > > throughout Colorado - reforms that are garnering national
> > > attention," said
> > > Dr. Helayne Jones, President and CEO of the Colorado Legacy
> > > Foundation. "At
> > > the Colorado Legacy Foundation, we believe that not one initiative,
> > or
> > > one
> > > organization for that matter, can meaningfully and permanently
> > > deliver on
> > > the promise of a great education for every student in this state.
> > And
> > > this
> > > investment by Rose Community Foundation is a critical statement of
> > > support
> > > for CLF's whole child, whole system, whole community approach to
> > > engage with
> > > multiple stakeholders cross the state and at every level of
> > > education."
> > >
> > > Rose Community Foundation was one of the first investors in the
> > > programmatic
> > > work of CLF partnering with other organizations including Daniels
> > > Fund,
> > > Gates Family Foundation and The Piton Foundation to provide
> > > support to
> > > infrastructure needs that have not kept pace with CLF's rapid
> > growth.
> > > In
> > > addition, the CLF's success in drawn national funding has been
> > > bolstered
> > > greatly by the widespread support of Colorado's local funding
> > > community.
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > http://colegacy.org/2013/06/colorado-legacy-foundation-
> > > announces-forward-thi
> > > nking-funding-support-from-rose-community-foundation/
> > > <http://colegacy.org/2013/06/colorado-legacy-foundation-announces-
> > > forward-thi nking-funding-support-from-rose-community-foundation/>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > pen-l mailing list
> > > [email protected]
> > > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Tom Walker (Sandwichman)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pen-l mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Tom Walker (Sandwichman)
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://lists.csuchico.edu/pipermail/pen-l/attachments/20130913/95f9bf4d/attachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 19:59:29 -0500
> From: "Carrol Cox" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is
> 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: "'Progressive Economics'" <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> :-)
>
> I thought the bit I copied was funny. Can't guess how e-mail tone turns out.
>
>
> And I did get two _very_ useful pointers towards the concept: change the
> "conversation" and terrain of struggle.
>
> More later. I hope. Sheer age or the pitter-patter of little TIAs is slowing
> me up a bit.
>
> Carrol I
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:pen-l-
> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Walker
> > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 6:22 PM
> > To: Progressive Economics
> > Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work'
> a
> > social democratic fantasy?
> >
> > O.K. but the site from Google was a diversion. I still would prefer that
> you
> > consider my comment in the context of Kliman's critique rather than as
> some
> > abstract hypothesis about "transformative reforms." You may recall that in
> > Value, Price and Profit, Marx criticized Weston's notion that it was
> futile to
> > struggle for higher wages. Marx concluded his exposition with the
> statement
> > that:
> >
> >
> > "Trades Unions work well as centers of resistance against the
> > encroachments of capital.They fail partially from an injudicious use of
> their
> > power. They fail generally from limiting themselves to a guerilla war
> against
> > the effects of the existing system, instead of simultaneously trying to
> change
> > it, instead of using their organized forces as a lever for the final
> emancipation
> > of the working class that is to say the ultimate abolition of the wages
> > system."
> >
> >
> > Thus it wasn't pointless to struggle for higher wages. It just wasn't
> enough.
> > But what's the "next step"? Marx suggested it should be raising the banner
> > "Abolish the wages system!" Maybe that was tongue in cheek. But if so, a
> lot
> > of people have taken it at face value and if not it's actually a pretty
> > ineffectual idea for a slogan. The average Marxian theoretician -- let
> alone
> > the average worker -- doesn't have a clue about what it might mean to
> > abolish the wages system. So what would be the point of writing it on a
> > banner? Irony?
> >
> > Elsewhere, Marx talks about the limitation of the working day as a
> > "preliminary condition" for improvement and emancipation. This makes
> > more sense. It was something that trade unions (and workers outside of
> > trade unions) were actually demanding at the time. And it is something
> that
> > highlights the subordination of workers to capital rather than the
> exchange
> > of an "equivalent" (x wages for y labor).
> >
> > I think there needs to be more ambiguity about demands. What I mean is
> > that policies, programs, slogans, demands need to be ambiguous as to
> > whether or not they entail a rejection of the capitalist system. My point
> is
> > that. for example, in a labor negotiation the employer (private sector, at
> > least) maintains the potential threat of bankruptcy, outsourcing,
> offshoring
> > etc. Against such a catastrophic (but ambiguous) threat, the threat of a
> work
> > stoppage is trivial.
> >
> > Without the threat of the workers outright rejecting the system, the
> balance
> > of coercion is very uneven exclusively in favor of capital. But on the
> other
> > hand, an overt, unequivocal "threat" that is not acted on ceases to be
> > credible.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Carrol Cox <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I was asking you, not google. The latter was merely a preliminary
> > check.
> >
> > I didn't even read very far in the site I quoted from. I knew your
> > meaning
> > must be different, but the quote was a way of narrowing the
> > question.
> >
> > Carrol
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [email protected] [mailto:pen-l-
> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Walker
> > > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 12:58 PM
> > > To: Progressive Economics
> > > Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is
> > 'post-work'
> > a
> > > social democratic fantasy?
> > >
> > > Better to ask me what I mean than ask Google. Maybe the NSA
> > knows what
> > > I'm thinking but they won't say. Transformative reforms are
> > reforms that
> > > change -- or potentially change -- the "conversation" or the
> terrain
> > of
> > > struggle.
> > >
> > > Please don't get hung up on the word choice. The Rose Community
> > > Foundation is welcome to use the same words to talk about
> > whatever they
> > > are talking about. What I was commenting on was a critique by
> > Andrew
> > > Kliman, not an announcement from the aforementioned
> > foundation. Either
> > > consider my comment in the context it was presented or ignore it.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Carrol Cox <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Tom Walker: "This doesn't mean such improvement can go on
> > > indefinitely, but
> > > such improvement as can be achieved has the potential of
> > opening
> > > up other
> > > possibilities. That's the notion of transformative reforms."
> > >
> > > =========
> > >
> > > This concept ("transformative reforms") sounds interesting,
> but
> > I
> > > would like
> > > to see some clarification of its content. I googled the
> phrase, but
> > > didn't
> > > see much that fit the present context. One example is
> attached
> > below
> > > (in
> > > part). I
> > >
> > > Carrol
> > >
> > > ****
> > > Home > Press Releases >
> > > CLF Announces Forward-Thinking Funding Support from Rose
> > > Community
> > > Foundation
> > > CLF Announces Forward-Thinking Funding Support from Rose
> > > Community
> > > Foundation
> > > Posted at June 25, 2013 | 0 Comment
> > >
> > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> > > June 25, 2013
> > > Colorado Legacy Foundation Announces Forward-Thinking
> > Funding
> > > Support from
> > > Rose Community Foundation
> > >
> > > DENVER, CO - Today the Colorado Legacy Foundation (CLF)
> > > announced another
> > > significant investment by Rose Community Foundation to
> > support
> > > CLF's
> > > sustainability. The $300,000 two-year grant will build
> > organizational
> > > capacity to support communications and development, project
> > > management and
> > > collaborative partnerships.
> > >
> > > "Rose Community Foundation has been an integral part of the
> > > success of our
> > > organization. More importantly, they have seeded
> > transformative
> > > reforms
> > > throughout Colorado - reforms that are garnering national
> > > attention," said
> > > Dr. Helayne Jones, President and CEO of the Colorado Legacy
> > > Foundation. "At
> > > the Colorado Legacy Foundation, we believe that not one
> > initiative,
> > or
> > > one
> > > organization for that matter, can meaningfully and
> permanently
> > > deliver on
> > > the promise of a great education for every student in this
> state.
> > And
> > > this
> > > investment by Rose Community Foundation is a critical
> > statement of
> > > support
> > > for CLF's whole child, whole system, whole community
> approach
> > to
> > > engage with
> > > multiple stakeholders cross the state and at every level of
> > > education."
> > >
> > > Rose Community Foundation was one of the first investors in
> > the
> > > programmatic
> > > work of CLF partnering with other organizations including
> > Daniels
> > > Fund,
> > > Gates Family Foundation and The Piton Foundation to provide
> > > support to
> > > infrastructure needs that have not kept pace with CLF's
> rapid
> > growth.
> > > In
> > > addition, the CLF's success in drawn national funding has
> been
> > > bolstered
> > > greatly by the widespread support of Colorado's local
> funding
> > > community.
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > http://colegacy.org/2013/06/colorado-legacy-foundation-
> > > announces-forward-thi
> > > nking-funding-support-from-rose-community-foundation/
> >
> > > <http://colegacy.org/2013/06/colorado-legacy-foundation-
> > announces-
> > > forward-thi nking-funding-support-from-rose-community-
> > foundation/>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > pen-l mailing list
> > > [email protected]
> > > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Tom Walker (Sandwichman)
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pen-l mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Tom Walker (Sandwichman)
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 18:33:21 -0700
> From: "Perelman, Michael" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is
> 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I agree with Tom. Limited victories on matters such as the working day and
> other reforms can provide fuel for organizing. Or are we supposed to wait
> for everybody to get screwed over so much that they all rise up in unison &
> create a socialist utopia overnight.
>
>
> Michael Perelman
> Economics Department
> California State University
> michael dot perelman at gmail.com
> Chico, CA 95929
> 530-898-5321
> fax 530-898-5901
> www.michaelperelman.wordpress.com
>
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Tom Walker
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 4:22 PM
> To: Progressive Economics
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work' a
> social democratic fantasy?
>
> O.K. but the site from Google was a diversion. I still would prefer that you
> consider my comment in the context of Kliman's critique rather than as some
> abstract hypothesis about "transformative reforms." You may recall that in
> Value, Price and Profit, Marx criticized Weston's notion that it was futile
> to struggle for higher wages. Marx concluded his exposition with the
> statement that:
>
> "Trades Unions work well as centers of resistance against the encroachments
> of capital.They fail partially from an injudicious use of their power. They
> fail generally from limiting themselves to a guerilla war against the effects
> of the existing system, instead of simultaneously trying to change it,
> instead of using their organized forces as a lever for the final emancipation
> of the working class that is to say the ultimate abolition of the wages
> system."
>
> Thus it wasn't pointless to struggle for higher wages. It just wasn't enough.
> But what's the "next step"? Marx suggested it should be raising the banner
> "Abolish the wages system!" Maybe that was tongue in cheek. But if so, a lot
> of people have taken it at face value and if not it's actually a pretty
> ineffectual idea for a slogan. The average Marxian theoretician -- let alone
> the average worker -- doesn't have a clue about what it might mean to abolish
> the wages system. So what would be the point of writing it on a banner? Irony?
>
> Elsewhere, Marx talks about the limitation of the working day as a
> "preliminary condition" for improvement and emancipation. This makes more
> sense. It was something that trade unions (and workers outside of trade
> unions) were actually demanding at the time. And it is something that
> highlights the subordination of workers to capital rather than the exchange
> of an "equivalent" (x wages for y labor).
>
> I think there needs to be more ambiguity about demands. What I mean is that
> policies, programs, slogans, demands need to be ambiguous as to whether or
> not they entail a rejection of the capitalist system. My point is that. for
> example, in a labor negotiation the employer (private sector, at least)
> maintains the potential threat of bankruptcy, outsourcing, offshoring etc.
> Against such a catastrophic (but ambiguous) threat, the threat of a work
> stoppage is trivial.
>
> Without the threat of the workers outright rejecting the system, the balance
> of coercion is very uneven exclusively in favor of capital. But on the other
> hand, an overt, unequivocal "threat" that is not acted on ceases to be
> credible.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Carrol Cox
> <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> I was asking you, not google. The latter was merely a preliminary check.
>
> I didn't even read very far in the site I quoted from. I knew your meaning
> must be different, but the quote was a way of narrowing the question.
>
> Carrol
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> > [mailto:pen-l-<mailto:pen-l->
> > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>] On Behalf Of
> > Tom Walker
> > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 12:58 PM
> > To: Progressive Economics
> > Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work'
> a
> > social democratic fantasy?
> >
> > Better to ask me what I mean than ask Google. Maybe the NSA knows what
> > I'm thinking but they won't say. Transformative reforms are reforms that
> > change -- or potentially change -- the "conversation" or the terrain of
> > struggle.
> >
> > Please don't get hung up on the word choice. The Rose Community
> > Foundation is welcome to use the same words to talk about whatever they
> > are talking about. What I was commenting on was a critique by Andrew
> > Kliman, not an announcement from the aforementioned foundation. Either
> > consider my comment in the context it was presented or ignore it.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Carrol Cox
> > <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Tom Walker: "This doesn't mean such improvement can go on
> > indefinitely, but
> > such improvement as can be achieved has the potential of opening
> > up other
> > possibilities. That's the notion of transformative reforms."
> >
> > =========
> >
> > This concept ("transformative reforms") sounds interesting, but I
> > would like
> > to see some clarification of its content. I googled the phrase, but
> > didn't
> > see much that fit the present context. One example is attached below
> > (in
> > part). I
> >
> > Carrol
> >
> > ****
> > Home > Press Releases >
> > CLF Announces Forward-Thinking Funding Support from Rose
> > Community
> > Foundation
> > CLF Announces Forward-Thinking Funding Support from Rose
> > Community
> > Foundation
> > Posted at June 25, 2013 | 0 Comment
> >
> > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> > June 25, 2013
> > Colorado Legacy Foundation Announces Forward-Thinking Funding
> > Support from
> > Rose Community Foundation
> >
> > DENVER, CO - Today the Colorado Legacy Foundation (CLF)
> > announced another
> > significant investment by Rose Community Foundation to support
> > CLF's
> > sustainability. The $300,000 two-year grant will build
> organizational
> > capacity to support communications and development, project
> > management and
> > collaborative partnerships.
> >
> > "Rose Community Foundation has been an integral part of the
> > success of our
> > organization. More importantly, they have seeded transformative
> > reforms
> > throughout Colorado - reforms that are garnering national
> > attention," said
> > Dr. Helayne Jones, President and CEO of the Colorado Legacy
> > Foundation. "At
> > the Colorado Legacy Foundation, we believe that not one initiative,
> or
> > one
> > organization for that matter, can meaningfully and permanently
> > deliver on
> > the promise of a great education for every student in this state.
> And
> > this
> > investment by Rose Community Foundation is a critical statement of
> > support
> > for CLF's whole child, whole system, whole community approach to
> > engage with
> > multiple stakeholders cross the state and at every level of
> > education."
> >
> > Rose Community Foundation was one of the first investors in the
> > programmatic
> > work of CLF partnering with other organizations including Daniels
> > Fund,
> > Gates Family Foundation and The Piton Foundation to provide
> > support to
> > infrastructure needs that have not kept pace with CLF's rapid
> growth.
> > In
> > addition, the CLF's success in drawn national funding has been
> > bolstered
> > greatly by the widespread support of Colorado's local funding
> > community.
> > [snip]
> >
> > http://colegacy.org/2013/06/colorado-legacy-foundation-
> > announces-forward-thi
> > nking-funding-support-from-rose-community-foundation/
> > <http://colegacy.org/2013/06/colorado-legacy-foundation-announces-
> > forward-thi nking-funding-support-from-rose-community-foundation/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pen-l mailing list
> > [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Tom Walker (Sandwichman)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> pen-l mailing list
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Tom Walker (Sandwichman)
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 19:11:14 -0700
> From: Eubulides <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is
> 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <caebd3zsvwonfyk+nfbuak5dcfxzcr--ypzo2p0d0eb9xpgz...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Perelman, Michael
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I agree with Tom. Limited victories on matters such as the working day and
> > other reforms can provide fuel for organizing. Or are we supposed to wait
> > for everybody to get screwed over so much that they all rise up in unison &
> > create a socialist utopia overnight.
>
>
> ===============
>
> Indeed; a synchronized satori of anti-capitalist collective action is
> off the table.
>
> Herding cats, now there's a challenge.
>
> E.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 19:15:47 -0700
> From: "Perelman, Michael" <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is
> 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Not off the table at all. Real reforms can help to create a belief that
> anti-capitalists can accomplish something. Marx supported unions even though
> he knew that the could never win any ultimate victories, but the hopeless
> battles could create a sense of solidarity that could help the cause succeed.
>
>
> Michael Perelman
> Economics Department
> California State University
> michael dot perelman at gmail.com
> Chico, CA 95929
> 530-898-5321
> fax 530-898-5901
> www.michaelperelman.wordpress.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Eubulides
> Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 7:11 PM
> To: Progressive Economics
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work' a
> social democratic fantasy?
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Perelman, Michael <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > I agree with Tom. Limited victories on matters such as the working
> > day and other reforms can provide fuel for organizing. Or are we
> > supposed to wait for everybody to get screwed over so much that they
> > all rise up in unison & create a socialist utopia overnight.
>
>
> ===============
>
> Indeed; a synchronized satori of anti-capitalist collective action is off the
> table.
>
> Herding cats, now there's a challenge.
>
> E.
> _______________________________________________
> pen-l mailing list
> [email protected]
> https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 22:17:22 -0400
> From: Julio Huato <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is
> 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <CAHDZDutjPETPGX4uF=gxvy3lmd0rbe9-xuo+kke01xntebb...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> http://progressive-economics-pen.1065355.n5.nabble.com/David-Laibman-on-reform-revolution-and-socialism-S-amp-S-Editorial-Perspectives-td25739.html
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Perelman, Michael
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
> > Not off the table at all. Real reforms can help to create a belief that
> > anti-capitalists can accomplish something. Marx supported unions even
> > though he knew that the could never win any ultimate victories, but the
> > hopeless battles could create a sense of solidarity that could help the
> > cause succeed.
> >
> >
> > Michael Perelman
> > Economics Department
> > California State University
> > michael dot perelman at gmail.com
> > Chico, CA 95929
> > 530-898-5321
> > fax 530-898-5901
> > www.michaelperelman.wordpress.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [email protected] [mailto:
> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Eubulides
> > Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 7:11 PM
> > To: Progressive Economics
> > Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is 'post-work'
> > a social democratic fantasy?
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Perelman, Michael <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I agree with Tom. Limited victories on matters such as the working
> > > day and other reforms can provide fuel for organizing. Or are we
> > > supposed to wait for everybody to get screwed over so much that they
> > > all rise up in unison & create a socialist utopia overnight.
> >
> >
> > ===============
> >
> > Indeed; a synchronized satori of anti-capitalist collective action is off
> > the table.
> >
> > Herding cats, now there's a challenge.
> >
> > E.
> > _______________________________________________
> > pen-l mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
> > _______________________________________________
> > pen-l mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 19:24:24 -0700
> From: michael perelman <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is
> 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <CADwRZbka=rpa2tfesmoqn6d+ghrrqslyad1wx6zv1w7muto...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Thank you Julio for David's piece. Very eloquent statement of what I was
> trying to say.
> --
> Michael Perelman
> Economics Department
> California State University
> Chico, CA
> 95929
>
> 530 898 5321
> fax 530 898 5901
> http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> http://lists.csuchico.edu/pipermail/pen-l/attachments/20130913/c63367f5/attachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 20:31:35 -0700
> From: Eubulides <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is
> 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 9/13/2013 7:15 PM, Perelman, Michael wrote:
>
>
> > Not off the table at all. Real reforms can help to create a belief that
> > anti-capitalists can accomplish something. Marx supported unions even
> > though he knew that the could never win any ultimate victories, but the
> > hopeless battles could create a sense of solidarity that could help the
> > cause succeed.
>
> >> I agree with Tom. Limited victories on matters such as the working
> >> day and other reforms can provide fuel for organizing. Or are we
> >> supposed to wait for everybody to get screwed over so much that they
> >> all rise up in unison & create a socialist utopia overnight.
>
> ==============
>
> I was responding to the second sentence in your post, which seemed to
> play on yet another variation of the trope of the big bang approach to
> social change; the mirror image of the capitalist fantasy in the wake of
> the implosion of the USSR.
>
> E.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 20:33:32 -0700
> From: michael perelman <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is
> 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <cadwrzbn6xh_rymbefxru9g2_ubsqt3bn+gfxtrqoybw2+jz...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> The second line was meant to be ironic.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 8:31 PM, Eubulides <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 9/13/2013 7:15 PM, Perelman, Michael wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Not off the table at all. Real reforms can help to create a belief that
> > anti-capitalists can accomplish something. Marx supported unions even
> > though he knew that the could never win any ultimate victories, but the
> > hopeless battles could create a sense of solidarity that could help the
> > cause succeed.
> >
> > >> I agree with Tom. Limited victories on matters such as the working
> > >> day and other reforms can provide fuel for organizing. Or are we
> > >> supposed to wait for everybody to get screwed over so much that they
> > >> all rise up in unison & create a socialist utopia overnight.
> >
> > ==============
> >
> > I was responding to the second sentence in your post, which seemed to
> > play on yet another variation of the trope of the big bang approach to
> > social change; the mirror image of the capitalist fantasy in the wake of
> > the implosion of the USSR.
> >
> > E.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > pen-l mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Perelman
> Economics Department
> California State University
> Chico, CA
> 95929
>
> 530 898 5321
> fax 530 898 5901
> http://michaelperelman.wordpress.com
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> http://lists.csuchico.edu/pipermail/pen-l/attachments/20130913/82540c96/attachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 20:40:02 -0700
> From: Eubulides <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is
> 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <CAEbD3ZT0-5=gd6ccg7twgkapk7wqao6umx90jqy-5mdjbn4...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 8:33 PM, michael perelman
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > The second line was meant to be ironic.
>
> =============
>
> We know.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Fri, 13 Sep 2013 21:40:19 -0700
> From: Tom Walker <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [Pen-l] Query re "Transformative Reforms" was Is
> 'post-work' a social democratic fantasy?
> To: Progressive Economics <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <canz+bqyiss_ofaxknm0g5zkbu1zmbatdbhn289vbjdtmnmz...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> "Herding cats, now there's a challenge."
>
> That's what I take to be THE challenge. One person with the "correct
> analysis" in a crowd of forty is at most one out of forty, probably less
> because of the multiplied influence of cultural cliches.
>
> I am playing with three concepts: Eric Hobsbawm's "collective bargaining by
> riot" E. P. Thompson's "moral economy" and Charles Tilly's "repertoire." I
> would like to suggest a chain of affinity running from Eleusinian mystery
> fertility rites to Roman Ambarvalia celebrations to medieval Catholic
> Rogationtide and "beating of the bounds" to food riots, anti-enclosure
> riots and Luddite frame-breaking. As Thompson argued, the latter episodes
> were not "spasmodic" but were deeply embedded in custom. In turn, the
> custom was deeply embedded in the eternal mysteries of life: birth, death,
> sexuality, the fertility of the soil and the cycle of the seasons as
> modulated by climatic variation.
>
> The term that I think indicates a mediation between theory and practice is
> liturgy, which could be defined as a repertoire of public worship. Worship
> is etymologically related to "worth" and "value," so there is an economic
> implication in worshiping. But it is a different economy. Public worship
> contrasts with private utility. It comes into being through sharing rather
> than through exchanging. The collective is not a *collection* of
> individuals. It is an entity whose self awareness requires a distinctive
> type of cultivation: liturgy, public worship (rites, riots, strikes...).
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 7:11 PM, Eubulides <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 6:33 PM, Perelman, Michael
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > I agree with Tom. Limited victories on matters such as the working day
> > and
> > > other reforms can provide fuel for organizing. Or are we supposed to
> > wait
> > > for everybody to get screwed over so much that they all rise up in
> > unison &
> > > create a socialist utopia overnight.
> >
> >
> > ===============
> >
> > Indeed; a synchronized satori of anti-capitalist collective action is
> > off the table.
> >
> > Herding cats, now there's a challenge.
> >
> > E.
> > _______________________________________________
> > pen-l mailing list
> > [email protected]
> > https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
>
> Tom Walker (Sandwichman)
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
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> http://lists.csuchico.edu/pipermail/pen-l/attachments/20130913/935ff5c7/attachment-0001.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 07:52:19 -0400
> From: c b <[email protected]>
> Subject: [Pen-l] Unpublished novel by Karl Marx:_ Scorpion and Felix_,
> A Humoristic Novel
> To: Forum for the discussion of theoretical issues raised by Karl Marx
> and the thinkers he inspired
> <[email protected]>, marxist-debate
> <[email protected]>, a-list
> <[email protected]>, lbo-talk
> <[email protected]>, pen-l <[email protected]>
> Message-ID:
> <caf490lz+kdsphzzvxrabdcf2v8kf3zo+dgoufhne-q5fwsv...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion_and_Felix
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Sat, 14 Sep 2013 14:39:02 -0400
> From: Louis Proyect <[email protected]>
> Subject: [Pen-l] Buyer?s remorse over the Arab Spring | Louis Proyect:
> The Unrepentant Marxist
> To: Activists and scholars in Marxist tradition
> <[email protected]>, Progressive Economics
> <[email protected]>
> Message-ID: <[email protected]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> I was struck by the recent bumper crop of articles complaining about the
> way things have turned out in the Middle East, a state of affairs most
> frequently alluded to as the Arab Winter. I imagine that the authors
> must feel a lot like I did when my thirteenth birthday arrived. When I
> unwrapped a long rectangular box, it turned out to be a badminton set
> and not the BB gun I had been expecting. What a bummer.
>
> full:
> http://louisproyect.org/2013/09/14/buyers-remorse-over-the-arab-spring/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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>
> End of pen-l Digest, Vol 2028, Issue 1
> **************************************
>
>
>
> --
> Jamie Stern-Weiner
> http://www.newleftproject.org/
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