On Oct 15, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 15 Oct 2013, at 13:29, Esteban Lorenzano <[email protected]> wrote: > >> well... fonts and UX in general are two different (yet related) issues. >> >> UX is a huge an complicated task, and has to be taken very seriously if we >> want to succeed. To allow the appropriate/productive/happy flows in an >> environment requires a lot of effort and to put all the pieces together. >> Yes, I know, that sounds so general that is like not saying anything :) >> Here is the concrete: Put all the UX pieces together requires a lot of >> effort usually not taken into account. That's how the UX evolved more or >> less the same way as morphic: a patch over a patch without much thinking >> about the issue, just takign what is there and parching/extending as needed. >> As morphic, the current UX in pharo is broken: there is no coherence between >> tools and sometimes even inside the same tool (for example nautilus has >> different behavior inside the code panel than in the list panels on top). >> This is not the fault of any tool, just a consequence of how evolution was >> managed until now. >> So, we wanted a better UX for Pharo3 that included: a new Theme, new Icon >> set, and new tools that worked well together. But task demonstrated to be a >> hard to beat beast, and we just moved forward in small areas (there is for >> example a new centralized menu coming along with a new spotlight). >> And there is a prototype of a new theme and also some icons that where >> thought specially and that will fit nicely. But they will not be ready this >> year and after thinking a while (and getting feedback of people in >> community), we decided, for Pharo3: >> >> - adopt the glamour theme. This is a step forward our current one because >> glamour guys (specially Doru) continued working on it to have a really clean >> and simple theme. >> - adopt the EclipsePack theme because is an iconset specially thought for >> programming that plays very well together. No matter if you do not like >> Eclipse (even if I think you are missing the relevance of Eclipse and a lot >> of good ideas that we could take from them), is about creating a unified >> vision. The old icon set (famfam) was not intended for programming >> environment and also there were a lot of different icons incorporated >> anarchically. >> - adopt a monospaced font for coding (right now Source Code Pro) and a >> non-monospaced for the rest (right now Open Sans). > > I agree with everything, except the monospaced font. > When, where, how was this decided ? I didn't see any discussion about this. > I would be very surprised if you, or anyone else of the key developers, used > that font. mmm... there was a "subjacent" discussion for months, but I agree that we should use more the list. In any case, this is still an open discussion. > Anyone else having an opinion about the mono spaced font ? > > It is not by erasing all differences with other systems that we will gain > traction ! is not about erasing differences, is about not been different when been different does not follows a meaning. I have my own experience to support my pov here: in my years teaching with pharo, I always had "lateral problems" with things that were not relevant... I would like to erase that, yes. To keep pharo been unique in the things that really matters. > > BTW: I don't see the any monospaced font in 30484, luckily ;-) > >> The objective is to offer a L&F that where visual elements plays well >> together. >> And there is another more important (IMHO) objective: to offer newcomers an >> environment easier to approach. Pharo (and all Smalltalk-inspired >> environments) is already very alien for newcomers. We get a lot of power in >> exchange of that alienish stuff, but very often the curve of learning or >> acceptance is too high and people that could step closer to us are pushed >> away. So, my idea is to keep been as alien as possible in the things that >> make us Pharo and be the less alien possible in the rest: A nice L&F that >> can be feel as "some kind" familiar, is part of it. >> >> Said so... well you still can switch back to the old and ugly (IMO) L&F >> executing some lines of code in your workspace. >> >> Same to fonts: monospaced fonts is the worldwide accepted way of present >> source code. Why should we stay different? >> >> In any case, please give it a chance before drop it (once I can actually see >> why the fonts are not really applied) and we'll see how it works. >> >> Esteban >> >> >> On Oct 15, 2013, at 12:18 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 15 Oct 2013, at 08:30, Pavel Krivanek <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> the issue that sets the new Pharo 3.0 look&feel uses a monospaced font >>>> for the code. It is only a coincidence that it is not set this way in >>>> the prebuild Pharo image. not a coincidence, a bug that arise when I tried to change it :) >>>> >>>> I have big doubts if this is the way to go. I think that proportional >>>> fonts are more natural for Smalltalk and without them the code is >>>> harder to read and not so beauty. I think that something like elastic >>>> tabstops would be much better solution. >>>> http://tibleiz.net/code-browser/elastic-tabstops.html Well... we can still iterate over the idea before release, but we do the best we can with the tools we have in the moment :) For me, is frankly uncomfortable to use proportional fonts when coding... is so annoying that I even use monospaced for lists, etc... but well, I accept the "current legislation": monospaced for code, proportional for the rest. >>> >>> Yeah, I can't imagine many Smalltalkers liking a mono-spaced font, I >>> personally hate it. Oh well, I'm a pharoer, and I love them :) >>> >>>> On the other way, it is only my personal opinion and if you think that >>>> the Eclipse-like look will attract more new users... >>> >>> I don't like Eclipse ;-) But like Marcus says, it is just a different icon >>> set. We want win any points on originality or personality though, which is >>> a missed opportunity. >> >> > >
