Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

[Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev]

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Sorry to say Stéphane, but those arguments are just as funny as wrong.
You know what?  I can copy some code from Smalltalk/X, Dolphin Smalltalk, 
VisualAge, ObjectStudio, VisualWorks, ObjectWorks, Smalltalk MT, Squeak, VSE, 
and many others and save it in Pharo and *it will compile* !!
So I guess Pharo is Smalltalk.
It's not because you renamed the workspace to Playground that it's not 
Smalltalk!
If it's not Smalltalk, tell me what it is!
And, btw, I can also take some Pharo code and import it in all the dialects 
mentionned above.  So I guess Pharo, like it or not, with all the fancy names 
and *we don't want no fucking backward compatibility and we try to distance 
ourselves as far as possible from all Smalltalks* is still Smalltalk.
Instead of spending a sh*tload of bytes arguing about this nonsense, let's move 
on to do some coding...
In Pharo, in Squeak, in Dolphin, in VAST, in VW, in ObjectStudio, in Amber in 
whatever...
I'm a Smalltalker : I don't give a f**k about the dialect.
I love Smalltalk, whatever the dialect.


 ----------------- 
Benoît St-Jean 
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean 
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux 
Pinterest: benoitstjean 
IRC: lamneth 
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com 
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)

      From: stepharo <steph...@free.fr>
 To: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org 
 Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2016 3:48 AM
 Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
   
 Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk
 
     - First because we make it to free us from the past. 
 
     - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90 do 
not discard Pharo because
 
                 - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well in 
team"
                 - "smalltalk oh it does not scale"
                 - "I cannot edit my code with emacs"
                 - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10 min to 
boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)"
                 - I did not get how you work in team
                 - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn"
                 - "Smalltalk is monolithic"
                 - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside 
world" a guy organising OOPSLA
                 - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes en 
bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas 
                 etre si super que cela...."
 
 I do not care that these statements are right or wrong. 
 I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can 
show that they are wrong. 
 There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk. 
 No more no less. 
 
 So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general. 
 
 So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and the 
future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it. 
 There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk to 
exist in 2050.
 The future is much more important that the history. 
 
 You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add to 
cross the street to fetch water. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 left blank on purpose
 
 
 
 Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
  
 
Stef, 
 On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <steph...@free.fr> wrote:
 
  
  
 You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same. 
 Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
 Do you think that people do not know how to count? 
 In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than 
     python, java, c#, lua, ...
 
 Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language 
and do node.js.
 Seriously. 
 Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell 
you.
 I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good 
opportunity. 
 Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of 
our system
 I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something. 
 Afterall I may be wrong. 
 Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with 
old friends
 just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that 
does not want to 
 promote smalltalk. 
 
  I do not blame you.  I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name.  I 
am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk.  I want to refute false 
assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol.  
Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older 
programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively? 
  
  I support this community and am excited to participate in it.  I admire and 
respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this 
community.  But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I 
profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.  And that thing is to deny Pharo 
is Smalltalk. 
  And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are 
important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and 
because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I 
will not support taking credit away from it.  Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk.  
Pharo is the real thing. 
   
 Stef
 
 Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
  
 
 
 On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <steph...@free.fr> wrote:
 
  
 
 SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
 What is so much pharo specific in this library?
 Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
  
 Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this 
looks like a 
 smart move. 
 There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and 
swift)
 so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
  
 
  When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community.  I 
find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to 
distance itself.  It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors 
of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude. 
  C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level 
imperative languages".  List is much older than C but no one wants to rename 
Lisp because it is perceived as old. 
  Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify 
the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic.  Further, Smalltalkl 
/is/ different and distinctive materially.  Why anyone would be ashamed of that 
incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me. 
  Offended, Eliot    
 
  
  
 
 

  

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