hi,
> On 24 Apr 2018, at 00:49, monty <mon...@programmer.net> wrote: > > +1. > > Replacing is sometimes necessary (Sven's stream work is an obvious example), > but I don't see why Nautilus had to be junked rather than gradually evolved > into Calypso. that’s clearly because you didn’t see nautilus at the inside. In fact, calypso started like that… we wanted to refactor nautilus into something usable, but after losing two months of Denis work, we decided to go other direction, since it was just impossible to do it properly without doing it again. And the effort of doing it from scratch was less than “destroy the house for the inside but let the façade” that would have been working with Nautilus. Also, in the case of Nautilus (or any system browser), there is the adding complexity of refactoring within itself. Not everything can be refactored/patched up to the infinite. > And I don't see why the catalog can't be gradually evolved into something > better. Killing it off would be discouraging to the users who went through > the trouble of adding #catalogXXX methods to their configs and publishing > them to the meta repos. Why would they bother adopting whatever replaces the > catalog if they think it will just get killed off too? catalog was a “temporary piece” that stayed for years. it was never intend to stay because it has some important limitations. said that, it can evolve from the quasi-prototype it is now (I should know, it was me who did it) to a real catalog. curiously, I’m thinking one part of making it better would be simplify it, but that’s another story. I wonder why people is so concerned about the use of “killing catalog” phrase. If you know the history of Pharo, we never “kill” anything we do not have a replacement for it so it was never in the table a proposal of just removing it. But to be good it needs: - some better way of collect baselines than force to build a configuration - a better place to be - some kind of validation rules - etc, etc, etc. So well, in this case maybe refactor it is not an option, since many of the assumptions it has are no longer valid. cheers, Esteban > > ___ > montyos.wordpress.com > > >> Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 at 9:29 AM >> From: "Torsten Bergmann" <asta...@gmx.de> >> To: pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org >> Cc: "Pharo Development List" <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> >> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog? >> >> Hi Stef, >> >> do not worry - I'm fully relaxed. It is you - who suggested to kill the >> catalog - without having >> or proposing a suitable alternative yet. If you want to route the thread to >> talking about "idiots" >> and "assholes" you go offtopic and I guess I have nothing more to contribute >> to the discussion. >> >> If it was not clear from my writing: I only expressed my wish that we should >> better improve it >> instead of killing it. That's all. >> >> Because anytime we have a better idea we get more disruptive in what we >> provide ... and this >> leads to the unfortunate situation: >> >> - that we replace our own stuff with newer ones again and again (which can >> but must not be good >> as things get more diverse and complicated over time) >> - that users have to know how things historically have been progressed to >> find its way >> through Pharo (including the terms and tools we use) >> >> I would not see this as a rant - but rather a true effect we can spot on >> many places in our >> ecosystem already. >> >> Long story short: I would vote for the "fix" if the sole other option is to >> "remove". >> >> Bye >> T. >> >> >>> Gesendet: Samstag, 21. April 2018 um 15:31 Uhr >>> Von: "Stephane Ducasse" <stepharo.s...@gmail.com> >>> An: "Pharo Development List" <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> >>> Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog? >>> >>> Torsten >>> >>> Sometimes you should relax. Because if you remember I pushed the >>> catalog (in fact I love it and we need a much more powerful one) >>> and I even improved it. I made it better to automatically add MC >>> repositories. >>> Of course Thierry is exagerating. >>> >>> Now we should fix or remove it. Simple no? >>> >>> Now you can rant in your corner thinking that I'm asshole. >>> This is ok for me. >>> >>> Stef >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Torsten Bergmann <asta...@gmx.de> wrote: >>>> Even there is no learning from the past - it's deja vu all over again... >>>> >>>> >>>>> Gesendet: Freitag, 20. April 2018 um 08:53 Uhr >>>>> Von: "Stephane Ducasse" <stepharo.s...@gmail.com> >>>>> An: "Pharo Development List" <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> >>>>> Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog? >>>>> >>>>> Hi torsten >>>>> >>>>> the wise shows the moon, the idiot sees his finger. >>>>> >>>>> Stef >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Torsten Bergmann <asta...@gmx.de> wrote: >>>>>> Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now >>>>>> directly want to >>>>>> kill catalog. Wow! >>>>>> >>>>>> Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent >>>>>> itself each day >>>>>> doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, >>>>>> improving and supporting >>>>>> what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not >>>>>> always. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thx >>>>>> T. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr >>>>>>> Von: "Stephane Ducasse" <stepharo.s...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> An: "Pharo Development List" <pharo-dev@lists.pharo.org> >>>>>>> Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi guys >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What do we do with it? >>>>>>> What alternatives? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Stef >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >
