On Dec 23, 2010, at 1:23 PM, Alexander Lazarević wrote:
> Stéphane, > > I don't perceived Leventes email to be aggressive at all (in contrast to > yours), but only to correct some false assumptions providing hard facts. If > the Pharo community honestly believes that it is an open and friendly > community, then there should be no problem with posts to the this mailinglist > trying to provide some facts and not chiming in to any chorus. ok alexander now I was not specifically aggressive but you seem to think I did. Strange. So this means that we cannot even have mild statements about MY own past. Funny how dogma can work. > Just let me say that it doesn't serve Pharo well to say that something else > lacks some features or is bad in many ways. I did not say anything special but just put in perspective things. I have much more fun ideas about how to measure progress like the amount of money spent on projects but this requires data that we cannot find on the web :) > That won't make Pharo any better. Emphasize on the great things Pharo has to > offer by itself (and I believe that there are many). I think this would > better suit Pharos vision. Now I would like to keep this mailing list out of such discussion and yes if people wants to show facts that squeak is faster, better, move faster.... they can send them here but why not sending them in the squeak mailing-lists? I remember people telling to miguel that he was a troll just because he was arguing about process on squeak-dev. So? > BTW, thanks Levente for the dates. There should be definitely some google > timeline [1] where we could maintain the smalltalk milestones of the past. You see milestones are just numbers. :) > Hi levente, > > after your mails some people sent me private mails because they did not feel > well. They wondered why people were sending mails against pharo in this > mailing-list while they do not send aggressive mails in squeak. > I can understand them. Now I think that this is ok that you send the mails > you want, > you can send your feelings here, even if this is not that positive :). Kicks > in the ass is always a feedback and we can make progress. > I always appreciated your benchmarks and precise remarks. I liked (and I told > you publicly) that you always replied to my mails about your changes in > squeak. I can understand your frustration (I have been there for years trying > to move squeak - again we did not do pharo for an ego problem - I cannot tell > the number of students that looked at me like I was an idiot to use a system > with all the colors and messy menus). We do pharo to build an ecosystem where > people can expand, create cool ideas and make money to live from them. > What is wrong with that? > > Now do not play pharo against squeak, it will not work on the mid term and > this is not fun for everybody. I would love that Squeak builds its own real > vision: for example been a real multimedia platform. We could have a lot of > fun. Now I think that except a miracle this will not happen: after 10 years, > squeak failed to go to the next level - I wanted everything and more Cairo, > Zoomable interface, crazy ideas and all the rest - I was a big fan of Sophie > (I can tell you that I was a bit fucked by some bulgarian people on that > level trying to support Squeak and sophie there) and other impara tools. Now > impara failed to make squeak sexy and them the center of the universe - They > could have but may be they did not have the vision to be something else than > building tools for alan. Anyway this is life. Now I wonder why you get stuck > in Squeak you are welcome in Pharo. May be Squeak fits your vision and spirit > but I do not understand what we are doing wrong so that you are mad against > us. > > Stef >
