esteban
- I want a talk presenting your application for the pharo conference
- yes you will work with igor to get FFI nb aligned
- for Pharo for the enterprise: I started with Olivier Auverlot but I feel
alone :)
we should have the DBXtalk chapter! Thanks guile!
Stef
On Feb 21, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
> Hi,
>
> while I see many of your points, I disagree with some of them:
>
> We have a tool that allow us to deliver complete and powerful applications in
> 2-6 weeks (and even less): Pharo.
>
> Right now my small company (of myself :) ) is finishing (bah, doing some
> change requests) for an application for managing thousands of accounts and
> data. Application was made on Glamour+Magritte+MongoTalk+Some persistence and
> reporting tool made by myself, based on magritte.
> Customer is really happy, because now they can obtain reports of any kind
> instead the shit they have before (made in Delphi, but there is not a problem
> of delphi itself but the programmer using it)
> The time to develop from scratch this? Four weeks-man. And if we took off all
> the work I made to make MongoTalk work, reporting and some personal adjusts
> to glamour, it would be less than three weeks (is important to know, because
> that work does not need to be repeated...).
> (btw, I could do the same for the web, using Seaside)
>
> Also, we are working (not yet there, but almost), to accomplish several of
> the issues not completely done for enterprise:
>
> 1) we have DBXTalk, to RDBMS. Is slow, but that's a problem of FFI that we
> think it will be solved soon (with Threaded FFI)
> 1.1) we also have a growing set of packages for working with NoSQL (Mongo,
> Riak, Tokio)
> 2) we have UI components and powerful frameworks like Glamour, but I agree
> there is a lot more work needed there
> 3) we have ways to talk to outside world (FFI, NB)... but also I agree more
> work is needed there (for instance, I would like to embed pharo into other
> applications, not just call libraries from pharo)
> 3.1) we also have SOAP support (never tried, not sure it's status)
> 4) For remote: we have Ubiquitalk
> 5) authentication: not sure what you mean but we have cryptography and work
> for secure connections is on the way (with Zodiac)
> 6) reporting. Ok, not much here... but there is HPDF package and I will
> release my HPDFReport and CSVReport classes soon (they are very easy classes
> anyway, don't expect too much :)
>
> for... bach modules... not sure what are you meaning with that...
>
> So yes, many of this issues are not really finished or stable (and that's why
> I see your concerns)... but just think where we were last year. I'm really
> optimistic about the future.
>
> What we really, really need is a book: "Pharo for the Enterprise". Something
> like the JEE specification, explaining how enterprise customers can use Pharo
> for their business, right now is a bit confusing, I admit that.
>
> Other concern (but this is a no-point for discussion, I just wanted to say it
> :P): Java and C# are not easy at all to learn. They are hard and ugly and new
> programmers spend years learning it (if they ever learn it completely)...
> also it is uncomfortable for starters (look how much you need to have a
> simple "hello, world" there). You think preparing an image is hard? give a
> new programer a maven script and ask him to build an application with that.
> Or worst, ask him to add a new dependency...
> Industry uses those languages and not Smalltalk for many-many reasons... but
> this is not one of them.
> (Also... there is a lot of big industries still developing on COBOL. sadly)
>
> best,
> Esteban
>
> El 21/02/2012, a las 2:16p.m., Krishsmalltalk escribió:
>
>>
>> The choice is ours to make and define.
>>
>> Yes enterprise is boring for those wanting life on the edge: tech or
>> anything alike... I would love to jump over to the other side...
>>
>> Its like the freedom of being Picasso vs being a commercial artist in a
>> studio.
>>
>> Enterprise typically will use software that is stable and capable of being
>> easily usable by newbies. It cares less for the edge of technology, which
>> can be achieved by just a minimal subset of the developer community. Yes no
>> new larger enterprise stuff will happen in COBOL or ilk... But java and c#
>> have proven to be easier to train in freshers, capable of adapting and
>> calling any of the new technology if required etc. The very facts we tout as
>> major winners in smalltalk is actually dimly viewed by the bulk of managers
>> in enterprise: dynamic typing to begin with. They love the fact that the
>> junior dev cannot commit many blunders that smalltalk can carry. Image based
>> runtime, packaging , source code mgmt in st, etc are amongst stuff few
>> comprehend well. Also we lack any decent libraries to for many a task,
>> including reporting, DBMS , soap and many other stuff which when required
>> only the ingenous smalltalker can cobble it, not our general developer base.
>>
>> I can be specific with tons of example, that we need to push a clean rock
>> stable kernel and winning platform like rails, that make it hugely possible
>> for a small firm to push out completed apps in 2 to 6 weeks. It's like the
>> construction industry, be able to pick all components of the software:
>> authentication, DBMS / ORM , reporting, UI components, messaging, interfaces
>> to outside world viz soap, FFI , Remote , batch modules, ... One can push in
>> a long list...
>>
>> All this is important only if we want to succeed statistically and that
>> enriches the community to then indulge even more in research, it's symbiotic
>> in that way. The more success you get in the industry the more funding there
>> will be to do fundamental research eventually, the more happier all levels
>> of smalltalkers from the expert to the beginners will be.
>>
>> Modified Quote from Kung Fu panda: master oogway "enterprise .. No
>> enterprise .. Who cares", what we do care for is the eventual adoption of
>> smalltalk as an equal partner in the landscape of languages, platforms in
>> the world, gives enough money for everyone around. Unequal if it must
>> eventually..
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 21, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Marcus Denker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:11 AM, Krishsmalltalk wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes,
>>>>
>>>> Do not emphasize on one or few keywords. Malleable is better than plastic
>>>> (can be off putting for any environment conscious)
>>>>
>>>> Adopt the Pharo motto:
>>>>
>>>> "Pharo shall be one of the best enterprise platform in 3 years."
>>>
>>>
>>> Isn't "Enterprise Plattform" another word for "boring and complicated" ??
>>>
>>> Marcus
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
