Hi, El 21/02/2012, a las 5:52p.m., Stéphane Ducasse escribió:
> esteban > > - I want a talk presenting your application for the pharo conference you ask it, you have it... :) > > - yes you will work with igor to get FFI nb aligned cool! > - for Pharo for the enterprise: I started with Olivier Auverlot but I feel > alone :) > we should have the DBXtalk chapter! Thanks guile! yes... maybe pharo conf. help to align this work Esteban > Stef > > On Feb 21, 2012, at 6:51 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> while I see many of your points, I disagree with some of them: >> >> We have a tool that allow us to deliver complete and powerful applications >> in 2-6 weeks (and even less): Pharo. >> >> Right now my small company (of myself :) ) is finishing (bah, doing some >> change requests) for an application for managing thousands of accounts and >> data. Application was made on Glamour+Magritte+MongoTalk+Some persistence >> and reporting tool made by myself, based on magritte. >> Customer is really happy, because now they can obtain reports of any kind >> instead the shit they have before (made in Delphi, but there is not a >> problem of delphi itself but the programmer using it) >> The time to develop from scratch this? Four weeks-man. And if we took off >> all the work I made to make MongoTalk work, reporting and some personal >> adjusts to glamour, it would be less than three weeks (is important to know, >> because that work does not need to be repeated...). >> (btw, I could do the same for the web, using Seaside) >> >> Also, we are working (not yet there, but almost), to accomplish several of >> the issues not completely done for enterprise: >> >> 1) we have DBXTalk, to RDBMS. Is slow, but that's a problem of FFI that we >> think it will be solved soon (with Threaded FFI) >> 1.1) we also have a growing set of packages for working with NoSQL (Mongo, >> Riak, Tokio) >> 2) we have UI components and powerful frameworks like Glamour, but I agree >> there is a lot more work needed there >> 3) we have ways to talk to outside world (FFI, NB)... but also I agree more >> work is needed there (for instance, I would like to embed pharo into other >> applications, not just call libraries from pharo) >> 3.1) we also have SOAP support (never tried, not sure it's status) >> 4) For remote: we have Ubiquitalk >> 5) authentication: not sure what you mean but we have cryptography and work >> for secure connections is on the way (with Zodiac) >> 6) reporting. Ok, not much here... but there is HPDF package and I will >> release my HPDFReport and CSVReport classes soon (they are very easy classes >> anyway, don't expect too much :) >> >> for... bach modules... not sure what are you meaning with that... >> >> So yes, many of this issues are not really finished or stable (and that's >> why I see your concerns)... but just think where we were last year. I'm >> really optimistic about the future. >> >> What we really, really need is a book: "Pharo for the Enterprise". Something >> like the JEE specification, explaining how enterprise customers can use >> Pharo for their business, right now is a bit confusing, I admit that. >> >> Other concern (but this is a no-point for discussion, I just wanted to say >> it :P): Java and C# are not easy at all to learn. They are hard and ugly and >> new programmers spend years learning it (if they ever learn it >> completely)... also it is uncomfortable for starters (look how much you need >> to have a simple "hello, world" there). You think preparing an image is >> hard? give a new programer a maven script and ask him to build an >> application with that. Or worst, ask him to add a new dependency... >> Industry uses those languages and not Smalltalk for many-many reasons... but >> this is not one of them. >> (Also... there is a lot of big industries still developing on COBOL. sadly) >> >> best, >> Esteban >> >> El 21/02/2012, a las 2:16p.m., Krishsmalltalk escribió: >> >>> >>> The choice is ours to make and define. >>> >>> Yes enterprise is boring for those wanting life on the edge: tech or >>> anything alike... I would love to jump over to the other side... >>> >>> Its like the freedom of being Picasso vs being a commercial artist in a >>> studio. >>> >>> Enterprise typically will use software that is stable and capable of being >>> easily usable by newbies. It cares less for the edge of technology, which >>> can be achieved by just a minimal subset of the developer community. Yes no >>> new larger enterprise stuff will happen in COBOL or ilk... But java and c# >>> have proven to be easier to train in freshers, capable of adapting and >>> calling any of the new technology if required etc. The very facts we tout >>> as major winners in smalltalk is actually dimly viewed by the bulk of >>> managers in enterprise: dynamic typing to begin with. They love the fact >>> that the junior dev cannot commit many blunders that smalltalk can carry. >>> Image based runtime, packaging , source code mgmt in st, etc are amongst >>> stuff few comprehend well. Also we lack any decent libraries to for many a >>> task, including reporting, DBMS , soap and many other stuff which when >>> required only the ingenous smalltalker can cobble it, not our general >>> developer base. >>> >>> I can be specific with tons of example, that we need to push a clean rock >>> stable kernel and winning platform like rails, that make it hugely possible >>> for a small firm to push out completed apps in 2 to 6 weeks. It's like the >>> construction industry, be able to pick all components of the software: >>> authentication, DBMS / ORM , reporting, UI components, messaging, >>> interfaces to outside world viz soap, FFI , Remote , batch modules, ... One >>> can push in a long list... >>> >>> All this is important only if we want to succeed statistically and that >>> enriches the community to then indulge even more in research, it's >>> symbiotic in that way. The more success you get in the industry the more >>> funding there will be to do fundamental research eventually, the more >>> happier all levels of smalltalkers from the expert to the beginners will >>> be. >>> >>> Modified Quote from Kung Fu panda: master oogway "enterprise .. No >>> enterprise .. Who cares", what we do care for is the eventual adoption of >>> smalltalk as an equal partner in the landscape of languages, platforms in >>> the world, gives enough money for everyone around. Unequal if it must >>> eventually.. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Feb 21, 2012, at 1:02 PM, Marcus Denker <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:11 AM, Krishsmalltalk wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yes, >>>>> >>>>> Do not emphasize on one or few keywords. Malleable is better than plastic >>>>> (can be off putting for any environment conscious) >>>>> >>>>> Adopt the Pharo motto: >>>>> >>>>> "Pharo shall be one of the best enterprise platform in 3 years." >>>> >>>> >>>> Isn't "Enterprise Plattform" another word for "boring and complicated" ?? >>>> >>>> Marcus >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > >
