I think you got this the wrong way Sure emacs and vim are very popular when compared to Pharo. When compared to IDEs oh boy , that's another story. There is a reason why their hardcore user are so desperate to call them IDEs and is not because they like IDEs, they dont. They hate IDEs.
Text based coding, has lost .... no my bad , let me correct this, text coding never stood chance. Smalltalk was like a nuclear bomb that when it landed it left nothing in its path, There is no doubt that nowdays IDEs dominating to a vast degree. Obviously big guns on top are Visual Studio (not Code) and Xcode by far for obvious reasons. Even in the case of my favorite IDE , Delphii its really amazing that even though its company has long disappeared, the all mighty Borland which one was the equivalent of Sun/Oracle. With only diffirent that obviously they were innovator. Even though outside Delphi absolutely none talks about Delphi. Delphi is surprisingly strong. Actually Delphis popularity is an undeniable proof how massively successful Smalltalk has been in its visual paradigm. Its company went to bankruptcy and the language was bought by a pretty much , even today, unknown company. The impact was that it went from 4th most popular to 12th most popular. Delphi even today is a formidable force for the Windows platform battling Go and freaking Swift who has the support of the most powerful company on the planet, Apple.There is no doubt in my mind that if Delphi was not such a massively loved IDE , being closed source which is a taboo for todays coding standards especially for a programming language, it would have been long dead. And lets not begin with scripting language which are basically dead. Python for example may be the 3rd most popular programming language but scripting wise has pretty much died. When it comes to the customisation of super advanced programs , the users has spoken loud and clear. They want visual coding and NOT text coding. 3 extremely complex fields , 3d graphics , Music and game development are dominated by Visual Coding languages. In Blender we offer both Python and Visual coding, guess what the users pick. Essentially one type of Visual Coding , node based visual coding. Also the time where visual coding was just for the users and not for the pros is long gone too after the massive success of Unreal's Blueprints. Which basically can do everything C++ can. Unreal's Blueprints is not even the first example of a visual language that will give a text language a run for its money. Softimage (3d app) ICE has been doing high performance coding decades ago. In music software we even have the insanity of visual language going down to low level, an I am not talking C++ or C , I mean real low level, old school Assembly code. Again decades ago. The users have spoken loud and clear and they have clearly stated they have no interest into investing the vast amount of wasted time that text coding requires. Even to learn how to code is dominated by Scratch. Just think about it, a language for kids dominates programming education. If you told that to a coder or even a user 20 years ago, he would have called you crazy and for a good reason. Text coding is only getting less and less popular by the year. I have no doubt at some point will completely disappear as did Assembly. So the biggest mistake of Smalltalk was not that it supported visual coding it was that it did not go visual coding all the way. It will have saved us the trouble of not being able to convince people to learn coding. Because people do not want to learn coding, And frankly.... I do not blame them. Visual coding is the only future of coding and Emac and Vim are relics of a past that has long gone. A despair attempt at nostalgia. On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 1:09 AM Hernán Morales Durand < hernan.mora...@gmail.com> wrote: > El jue., 24 ene. 2019 a las 13:18, Sven Van Caekenberghe (<s...@stfx.eu>) > escribió: > >> >> >> > On 24 Jan 2019, at 17:04, K K Subbu <kksubbu...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > >> > On 24/01/19 7:23 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >> >> Everybody is of course totally free to do whatever they want, but >> >> really, why the hell would you want to do that ? >> > Because text has many uses other than just feeding into a compiler for >> translation to machine code? People who come from Unix/Linux world are used >> to using a rich collection of tools that deal with text in various ways. >> >> I am myself a server/linux guy, an emacs user, I know what is all >> possible and what the unix philosophy is. >> >> I also know how to integrate Pharo into that world, and this is super >> important. >> >> >> You lose so much by doing that, I do not even know where to start. >> > >> > Live coding (i.e. coding in the presence of instances) is undoubtedly >> more powerful than edit-compile-run cycle. Text is used to direct IDE to >> edit live objects. But text has many more uses than just issuing commands. >> If beginners start using vim just to edit code due to established habits, >> they will soon realize the ease of live coding and remain in IDE. This is a >> self-correcting error. >> >> Well, I don't think so. >> >> The users that you are going to attract in this way (the ones that don't >> want to leave their own IDE/editor), will look at textual Pharo and find it >> very strange and ill suited to textual editing (and they are absolutely >> right), they will not discover the power, will not learn (from this >> experience alone) what object design/programming/power is, and will ask for >> more (e.g. give me C style compiler errors, better/easier structure of the >> file, fixed the !! escape issue, etc, ...). >> >> > We should admit for once text-based programming already won for this age. > Want a nice proof? Check Mr. Robot series. That's how a new generation of > devs is getting it. It doesn't matter if we have 30 years of experience > supporting exploratory UI is the best way, not even if we are fully > convinced of it. Probably it's time to invert the burden of proof, and let > people decide how they want to get into Pharo. If they want an > Objective-Smalltalk mode, let people live and die with it. > > And I love the Class Browser, but we cannot assume every coder has > developed an exploratory mindset. Just ready to jump into a world of new > tools. "Forcing" on developing it through tools isn't actually nice > attitude neither. And there are really good devs out there, it may just > happen that they don't want a shock therapy as someone told above. Or they > don't have the time+energy for now. Let people themselves discover the > right tools for them, or stay where they want to. > > So IMHO until someone really sits down and figure out a cool Pharo REPL, > we will get the same print me "Hello World" trolls in forums. > > Cheers, > > Hernán > > >> >> Editing a .st file has always been possible, it is masochism.Vim is >> much more than just a typewriter. It can leverage a whole set of >> > text-based tools. One could use it to auto generate methods, clean them >> up and then file into Pharo. >> > >> > Regards .. Subbu >> > >> >> >>
