In a message dated 3/22/2008 7:49:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes:
were put in boxes which did NOT say Federal but instead said 'Everlasting Indestructible' Cylinder Record and were colored either green for 2 minute cyls or red for 4-minute cyls. =========== as Mike says, the complete picture is a little more complicated. I have, e.g., an old style Indestructible box and cylinder with a "Federal" Mailing label pasted on the outside. The trademark for Federal occurred in 1917, if I recall. Some of these Ind's also have 'Federal' in the name of the group performing. Those red and green Everlasting Indestructible boxes, with no obvious parentage or addresses are tricky. Do they date from the period when Columbia gave up its exclusive distribution contract with Albany Ind (1912-1914)? Or do they date from ca 1914-1917, when M-W gave up on the US Everlastings? Allen _www.phonobooks.com_ (http://www.phonobooks.com) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) From [email protected] Sat Mar 22 18:28:04 2008 From: [email protected] (ger) Date: Sat Mar 22 17:58:31 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ References: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <000a01c88c85$25b88d90$6c9fe...@ger1> I'm reading an online article by Tim Gracyk who mentions the Lamberts as patented in 1900 and 1902. That they originally came in pink, but also white and darker colors such as brown or black. How can you tell if it might be a Lambert instead? By "migrated"... do you mean that because the Lamberts were made only 1900-1902, others took up the patent?? The article also says: "Unusual performances are on U-S Everlasting cylinders (all are celluloid). Elsie Baker sings "Till The Sands of the Desert Grow Cold" on U-S Everlasting 1591. The song was otherwise cut by bass singers only. This is also on Indestructible 3308--the two cylinder companies were separate but after the U. S. Phonograph Company folded, some of its U-S Everlasting molds went to the Indestructible company in Albany, which pressed records from the molds and sold them as their own." These are confusing companies! :) ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 5:51 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ In a message dated 3/22/2008 6:44:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: First, Why is there a patent date of 1902 on ALL of the records ============= The July 29, 1902 patent (by Messer) is explained in detail in PHP. It was originally used on Lambert celluloid cylinders, and then migrated over to the Albany Indestructibles (Oxford too). Those were first placed on sale in Nov 1907 and lasted until around 1922, when the factory burned down. Do not confuse them with US Everlasting's which had a different patent (Varian Harris) and no metal rings inside. Those were sold from 1910 - ca. 1914, also in both 2 and 4-min types. The Lakeside brand was used by Montgomery Ward. Allen _www.phonobooks.com_ (http://www.phonobooks.com) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) _______________________________________________ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From [email protected] Sat Mar 22 17:18:09 2008 From: [email protected] ([email protected]) Date: Sat Mar 22 18:13:59 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ Message-ID: <[email protected]> In a message dated 3/22/2008 7:49:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: were put in boxes which did NOT say Federal but instead said 'Everlasting Indestructible' Cylinder Record and were colored either green for 2 minute cyls or red for 4-minute cyls. =========== as Mike says, the complete picture is a little more complicated. I have, e.g., an old style Indestructible box and cylinder with a "Federal" Mailing label pasted on the outside. The trademark for Federal occurred in 1917, if I recall. Some of these Ind's also have 'Federal' in the name of the group performing. Those red and green Everlasting Indestructible boxes, with no obvious parentage or addresses are tricky. Do they date from the period when Columbia gave up its exclusive distribution contract with Albany Ind (1912-1914)? Or do they date from ca 1914-1917, when M-W gave up on the US Everlastings? Allen _www.phonobooks.com_ (http://www.phonobooks.com) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) From [email protected] Sat Mar 22 19:46:57 2008 From: [email protected] (ger) Date: Sat Mar 22 18:51:10 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ References: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <001301c88c90$2a41be30$6c9fe...@ger1> I'm still reading online articles. Lambert was put out of business after numerous infringement lawsuits by Edison. It's said that when Lambert finally folded (records produced 1901-1905), TAE got the patents to Lamberts' celluloid records. However, he didn't introduce the celluloid until 1912. This suggests to me that these "other" companies who made celluloid cylinders kind of snuck in (1908-1912 generally) while all these lawsuits were going on, and before TAE put out his first EBA. Does this sound about right? And how did Indestructible manage to keep making records until 1922, without TAE eating them up too? :) PS: I read that Lamberts were pure celluloid, no liner or metal frame. So that question is answered. ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ In a message dated 3/22/2008 7:49:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: were put in boxes which did NOT say Federal but instead said 'Everlasting Indestructible' Cylinder Record and were colored either green for 2 minute cyls or red for 4-minute cyls. =========== as Mike says, the complete picture is a little more complicated. I have, e.g., an old style Indestructible box and cylinder with a "Federal" Mailing label pasted on the outside. The trademark for Federal occurred in 1917, if I recall. Some of these Ind's also have 'Federal' in the name of the group performing. Those red and green Everlasting Indestructible boxes, with no obvious parentage or addresses are tricky. Do they date from the period when Columbia gave up its exclusive distribution contract with Albany Ind (1912-1914)? Or do they date from ca 1914-1917, when M-W gave up on the US Everlastings? Allen _www.phonobooks.com_ (http://www.phonobooks.com) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) _______________________________________________ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From [email protected] Sat Mar 22 18:55:49 2008 From: [email protected] (John Maeder) Date: Sat Mar 22 18:57:09 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ In-Reply-To: <[email protected]> References: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Ger -- Lamberts are easily identified because they have no core, just "hollow" celluloid. Typically, the titles, etc. are printed in ink on the rims, and sometimes have printing on the groove portion of the celluloid. > From: [email protected] > Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 20:18:09 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ > To: [email protected] > > > In a message dated 3/22/2008 7:49:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes: > > were put in boxes which did NOT say Federal but instead said 'Everlasting > Indestructible' Cylinder Record and were colored either green for 2 minute > cyls or red for 4-minute cyls. > > > =========== > as Mike says, the complete picture is a little more complicated. > > I have, e.g., an old style Indestructible box and cylinder with a > "Federal" Mailing label pasted on the outside. The trademark for Federal > occurred in > 1917, if I recall. Some of these Ind's also have 'Federal' in the name of > the > group performing. > > Those red and green Everlasting Indestructible boxes, with no obvious > parentage or addresses are tricky. Do they date from the period when > Columbia > gave up its exclusive distribution contract with Albany Ind (1912-1914)? Or > do > they date from ca 1914-1917, when M-W gave up on the US Everlastings? > > Allen > _www.phonobooks.com_ (http://www.phonobooks.com) > > > > > > **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL > Home. > (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) > _______________________________________________ > Phono-L mailing list > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From [email protected] Sat Mar 22 20:02:46 2008 From: [email protected] (ger) Date: Sat Mar 22 19:04:32 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison: Thomas Morgan? References: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <001a01c88c92$5f3100e0$6c9fe...@ger1> OK. Here's another REALLY odd record I found. It's black wax, in pieces, but held together by wrapped paper and a string. On the paper is pencilled: "Thomas Morgan." When you look at the record, on the top is hand-scribed: "....and others. Carnahan Record" (the first part of the top is broken off). In spots there are very fine lines, like an attempt to record, but not well-done. INSIDE: there is a 1" carboard collar at the top and a 1" cardboard collar at the bottom. The part in between (inside) is another piece of cardboard, looking like re-used cardboard, partially printed with "...-aundered shirt each day...for any occasion...by the cleanliness and..." I can't take a photo of the inside because it's very difficult to see without spotlight and angling. This sounds like someone tried to make their own wax record, using a cardboard center!? And, if so, does anyone recognize the name?? Also, how common would it have been for folks to make their own wax records...any ideas? :) ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ In a message dated 3/22/2008 7:49:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: were put in boxes which did NOT say Federal but instead said 'Everlasting Indestructible' Cylinder Record and were colored either green for 2 minute cyls or red for 4-minute cyls. =========== as Mike says, the complete picture is a little more complicated. I have, e.g., an old style Indestructible box and cylinder with a "Federal" Mailing label pasted on the outside. The trademark for Federal occurred in 1917, if I recall. Some of these Ind's also have 'Federal' in the name of the group performing. Those red and green Everlasting Indestructible boxes, with no obvious parentage or addresses are tricky. Do they date from the period when Columbia gave up its exclusive distribution contract with Albany Ind (1912-1914)? Or do they date from ca 1914-1917, when M-W gave up on the US Everlastings? Allen _www.phonobooks.com_ (http://www.phonobooks.com) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) _______________________________________________ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From [email protected] Sat Mar 22 19:09:21 2008 From: [email protected] (Steven Medved) Date: Sat Mar 22 19:32:12 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ In-Reply-To: <000a01c88c85$25b88d90$6c9fe...@ger1> References: <[email protected]> <000a01c88c85$25b88d90$6c9fe...@ger1> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Most but not all Lamberts do not have anything inside. Steve > From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [Phono-L] > Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/> Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2008 20:28:04 -0500> > > I'm reading an online article by Tim Gracyk who mentions the Lamberts as > patented in 1900 and 1902. That they originally came in pink, but also white > and darker colors such as brown or black. > How can you tell if it might be a > Lambert instead? > By "migrated"... do you mean that because the Lamberts > were made only 1900-1902, others took up the patent??> > The article also > says:> "Unusual performances are on U-S Everlasting cylinders (all are > celluloid). Elsie Baker sings "Till The Sands of the Desert Grow Cold" on U-S > Everlasting 1591. The song was otherwise cut by bass singers only. This is > also on Indestructible 3308--the two cylinder companies were separate but > after the U. S. Phonograph Company folded, some of its U-S Everlasting molds > went to the Indestructible company in Albany, which pressed records from the > molds and sold them as their own." > > These are confusing companies! :)> > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: [email protected] > To: > [email protected] > Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 5:51 PM> Subject: Re: > [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/> > > > In a message dated > 3/22/2008 6:44:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > [email protected] writes:> > > First, Why is there a patent date of 1902 on ALL of the records> > > > =============> The July 29, 1902 patent (by Messer) is explained in detail in > PHP. It was > originally used on Lambert celluloid cylinders, and then > migrated over to the > Albany Indestructibles (Oxford too). Those were first > placed on sale in Nov > 1907 and lasted until around 1922, when the factory > burned down.> > Do not confuse them with US Everlasting's which had a > different patent > (Varian Harris) and no metal rings inside. Those were sold > from 1910 - ca. 1914, > also in both 2 and 4-min types. The Lakeside brand > was used by Montgomery > Ward.> > Allen> _www.phonobooks.com_ > (http://www.phonobooks.com) > > > > > **************Create a Home Theater > Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL > Home. > > (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001)> > _______________________________________________> Phono-L mailing list> > http://phono-l.oldcrank.org> _______________________________________________> > Phono-L mailing list> http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From [email protected] Sat Mar 22 19:09:42 2008 From: [email protected] ([email protected]) Date: Sat Mar 22 19:32:24 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ Message-ID: <[email protected]> In a message dated 3/22/2008 9:37:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: How can you tell if it might be a Lambert instead? By "migrated"... do you mean that because the Lamberts were made only 1900-1902, others took up the patent?? =========== Most Lambert cylinders are hollow, no matter what their color; only the last, in 1905, had a hastily applied plaster core (because Edison's 1888 tapered core patent expired). Lamberts were thus made from 1900-1905; by Jan 1906 they were bankrupt. Only the very first ones were white, the natural color of the celluloid. Those also tended to be fairly thick. Allen _www.phonobooks.com_ (http://www.phonobooks.com) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) From [email protected] Sat Mar 22 19:12:20 2008 From: [email protected] ([email protected]) Date: Sat Mar 22 19:32:32 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ Message-ID: <[email protected]> In a message dated 3/22/2008 9:52:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: TAE got the patents to Lamberts' celluloid records. this did not occur when Lambert went bankrupt, in 1906. It took a while, and for many years, Edison said he didn't "like" such a material as it was too noisy, etc. Deals were finally worked with Philpot, allowing TAE to release BAs by 1912. There were several other companies who also produced celluloid cylinders in that time period. All explained in PHP... Allen **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) From [email protected] Sat Mar 22 19:13:48 2008 From: [email protected] (john robles) Date: Sat Mar 22 19:32:40 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Relatively rare phono for sale Message-ID: <[email protected]> Hello all There comes a time when you have to make a decision between two choices and prioritize. I purchased a harp (I perform folk music from Mexico on a five foot wooden harp) a few years back, and it is structurally failing. I have an opportunity to buy a new harp by a different builder who build superb harps. They are also expensive, to the tune of $1500.00. I neede to raise the money in a relatively short time because the harp is being brought to California in approximately one month. To that end, I have had to prioriize the harp and a phonograph. The phonograph sits there and looks pretty. It plays records. The harp is also pretty, and I play it and make money. The harp earns me money I can invest. The phono IS an investment. But it will not keep making money for me and the harp will as I perform several times a month. Therefore, though I love this phonograph, it must go. It leaves me woith about 7 others, all nice items, but this one is the most likely to help me attain the goal of the new harp. THIS DEAL IS BEING OFFERED TO THIS LIST FIRST. If there is no sale by Wednesday I will put it on eBay. The phonograph in question is a Columbia BG 20th Century cylinder player. It is an equivalent of the Edison Triumph. It is large, weighs about fifty pounfds, four spring motor - but there are big differences between it and the Triumph. For one, the cabinet is solid Mahogany. There are darn few mahogany cylinder players unless you count the Amberolas. The bedplate is nickel plated. The mandrel is over 6 inches long and the machine plays the 20th century cylinders, one of which comes with it (A Paul Morris repro included in the price, OR an orig 20th Century Columbia cylinder for an additional $150 - about half what they go for on ebay. THIS OFFER IS BEING MADE TO LIST MEMBERS ONLY - If the machine goes on ebay, no cylinder will be included, but will be sold separately. Here's the deal then - Columbia BG, Paul Morris 6" cylinder, orig black/brass witches hat horn - $1150.00. Condition - the horn needs the bell cleaned of its green tarnish and some dings could be taken out,. That's up to the buyer. The phonograph is missing one bolt in the back right corner. I have not approached George Vollema about a replacement, though I am sure one can be found. This was used on other Columbia machiness too. The finish had another finish put over it, but the original was not stripped. This accounts for the decent condition of the decals. Pictures are available at the link below. Those are the ONLY condition issues. I am making a new belt for it that will approximate the width of the original, rather than using conventional 1/4 inch leather lacing. The belt will be knife cut and therefore no wobbling will occur. Pics are at the link below. If you have interest, let me know! Thanks John Robles http://s197.photobucket.com/albums/aa39/john9ten/Columbia%20BG/ From [email protected] Sat Mar 22 20:15:26 2008 From: [email protected] (ger) Date: Sat Mar 22 19:32:46 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison:Carnahan record References: <[email protected]> <000a01c88c85$25b88d90$6c9fe...@ger1> Message-ID: <003701c88c94$24ec3f10$6c9fe...@ger1> See an earlier post about another odd record, then Check this out! It mentions a Carnahan in an Edison Day Celebration in Michigan, 1940! http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~miporthu/People/Weil/Carnahan_Robert.jpg ----- Original Message ----- From: ger To: Antique Phonograph List Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 8:28 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ These are confusing companies! :) ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 5:51 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ In a message dated 3/22/2008 6:44:24 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: First, Why is there a patent date of 1902 on ALL of the records ============= The July 29, 1902 patent (by Messer) is explained in detail in PHP. It was originally used on Lambert celluloid cylinders, and then migrated over to the Albany Indestructibles (Oxford too). Those were first placed on sale in Nov 1907 and lasted until around 1922, when the factory burned down. Do not confuse them with US Everlasting's which had a different patent (Varian Harris) and no metal rings inside. Those were sold from 1910 - ca. 1914, also in both 2 and 4-min types. The Lakeside brand was used by Montgomery Ward. Allen _www.phonobooks.com_ (http://www.phonobooks.com) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15?ncid=aolhom00030000000001) _______________________________________________ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org _______________________________________________ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.oldcrank.org From [email protected] Sat Mar 22 19:24:06 2008 From: [email protected] (Michael F. Khanchalian) Date: Sat Mar 22 19:32:54 2008 Subject: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ References: <[email protected]> <001301c88c90$2a41be30$6c9fe...@ger1> Message-ID: <001801c88c8c$f84a0610$0202a...@michael> Dear ger, All I've got to say is that I admire your passion about all the details about these cylinder companies...... reminds me of my own! With your enthusiastic inquisitiveness, you'll get the complicated picture well figured out in due course! Wait until you get into all the early brown wax companies of 1890-1904 and all the non-U.S cylinder companies....... Opps....guess I opened up a can of worms there! Happy regards, Michael Khanchalian (cylinder doctor) ----- Original Message ----- From: "ger" <[email protected]> To: "Antique Phonograph List" <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2008 7:46 PM Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Cylinders not Edison, but whose?/ I'm still reading online articles. Lambert was put out of business after numerous infringement lawsuits by Edison. It's said that when Lambert finally folded (records produced 1901-1905), TAE got the patents to Lamberts' celluloid records. However, he didn't introduce the celluloid until 1912. This suggests to me that these "other" companies who made celluloid cylinders kind of snuck in (1908-1912 generally) while all these lawsuits were going on, and before TAE put out his first EBA. Does this sound about right? And how did Indestructible manage to keep making records until 1922, without TAE eating them up too? :) PS: I read that Lamberts were pure celluloid, no liner or metal frame. So that question is answered.
