Doug, the lateral tracking angle (LTA) error that you mention as being
indigenous to the Brunswick Ultona when playing vertical recordings (either
Edison or Pathe) is of no consequence so far as reproduction fidelity is
concerned. LTA error describes the situation whereby the direction of
lateral stylus motion is not perfectly radial with regard to the record.
LTA error is caused by the tonearm overhang not being perfectly set at a
given record diameter so as to produce stylus motion which is perfectly
parallel to the modulation axis of the diaphragm (or other transducer). LTA
error will produce some undesired effects when playing lateral-cut records.
But purely mono vertical recordings such as Edisons and Pathes produce the
same stylus tip motion, regardless of LTA, which results in the same
diaphragm (or other transducer) motion which means that LTA has NO affect on
reproduction of purely vertical modulation. The situation is complicated in
the case of modern stereo recordings where there are two channels of audio,
each comprised of a lateral and a vertical component, and LTA (as well as
vertical tracking angle, VTA) does affect the reproduced signal. However,
LTA does have an affect on the skating force delivered to the tonearm which
may cause mistracking or groove skipping or sticking. Note that the Edison
DD players DO have a significant amount of LTA designed into them as well,
although not as much as an Ultona. Which had no detrimental affect on the
reproduction, so Edison ignored it. But it did pose a problem with groove
skipping when Edison released the long play (LP) version of the DD due to
the extremely small and shallow groove shape. Edison had to minimize the
LTA of the LP reproducer the best he could while still utilizing his
original DD player tonearm design. He was able to do this by canting the
reproducer weight at an angle relative to the output sound tube. Again,
this was done only to reduce the incidence of groove skipping, not for
reproduction quality reasons.
Trying to use a DD reproducer for playing other vertical-cut records
will immediately present a problem of how to pull the reproducer across the
record. If you use the feedscrew of the DD player, you will probably not
get good tracking for very long because most other records were not cut at
the same pitch (number of lines per inch) as the DDs and the reproducer
weight limit pin will hit the limit loop within just a few revolutions of
the record. Trying to disengage the feedscrew on a DD player is not
reasonable because the tonearm is extremely massive (it also moves the
complete horn assembly) and has way too much friction for the record groove
to move the tonearm, again resulting in groove skipping. Mounting the DD
reproducer on a different tonearm would be possible, but no original
equipment was designed for this.
Ignoring the very real issue of pulling the reproducer across the
record, the question of using an Edison DD reproducer on other types of
records then becomes
one of whether the stylus fits the groove shape properly. Most other
vertical cut records had a substantially different groove shape from that of
the DD. Pathe grooves were much wider and the use of the smaller DD stylus
will tear them up rapidly. Other vertical records had basically a V-shaped
fairly deep groove much the same as that used in lateral cuts. They were
designed to be played with steel needles which would quickly wear themselves
into the shape of the groove and thereby reduce the pressure on the groove
walls and keep record wear to a minimum, just as with lateral records.
Again, use of a DD diamond stylus in one of these V grooves will rapidly
wear the record. Likewise, use of a stylus shape different from the Edison
when playing DDs is not recommended at the high tracking forces required by
acoustic reproducers. Too small a stylus will tear up the DD and too large
a stylus tip will not fit into the groove which will result in groove
skipping and much echo. However, the use of modern pickups with very light
tracking force poses no problem for playing DDs. With tracking forces of
about 4 grams or less, even with a considerably undersized stylus, there is
so little pressure on the hard condensite record material that the material
will not yield and no record wear should result.
Greg Bogantz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Houston" <cdh...@earthlink.net>
To: "Antique Phonograph List" <phono-l@oldcrank.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 4:00 PM
Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Vertical on DD, Edison on saphire?
> Ron: Of all people on this planet, I'm probably the least to comment
> intelligently about playing DD's on anything but an Edison phonograph.
> But, since, for instance, the Brunswick Ultona head plays a DD, and the
> disc carries the stylus across the record, it does so on an angle not
> done on an Edison player. The modulaion of the groove is then read at an
> angle. Since Edison's stylus reads the modulation on a 90 degree angle to
> the disc, does this degrade the quality (fidelity) of the recording, and
> would the playing angle have a detrimental effect to the disc, for the
> same number of plays? I'm drawing from memory, because I haven't owned a
> Brunswick phonograph for some years, but I seem to remember that the
> B'wick head plays the DD at an angle, as any oher of the "twist around"
> boxes did. And, by the way, while the Brunswick phono I had was in very
> good shape, the DD I played on it sounded far poorer than it had sounded
> on a DD player I once had.
>
> I'm assuming of course, that the stylus pressure of the Ultona (or any
> other head) would be similar to that of a DD player. We all know that
> Edison frowned upon anything but his players to play his records, but was
> there any technical substance to this, or was it simply Madison Avenue
> hype?
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Ron L <lhera...@bu.edu>
>> To: Antique Phonograph List <phono-l@oldcrank.org>
>> Date: 4/10/2008 12:07:50 PM
>> Subject: RE: [Phono-L] Vertical on DD, Edison on saphire?
>>
>> Well, you can't use a DD reproducer on anything but a DD. You could use
>> a
>> suitable adaptor in place of the DD reproducer, however to play another
>> brand vertical record on the DD machine.
>>
>> Diamond discs are not designed to propel the arm across the record.
>> However
>> if the machine is nice and level and the arm is very free swinging, it
>> will
>> work. I don't know if there is anything to be gained or lost sonically.
>>
>> Ron L
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org [mailto:phono-l-boun...@oldcrank.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of james n. vandrisse
>> Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 11:50 AM
>> To: phono-l@oldcrank.org
>> Subject: [Phono-L] Vertical on DD, Edison on saphire?
>>
>> (J.M.J.)
>>
>> What would the pro and cons be regarding the playing of other company
>> vertical records on a C-19 or C-250 machine? And what about playing DDs
>> on
>> any other machines that the sound box can be turned to play vertical
>> records
>> with a saphire stylus? Are there any possible damages to records to be
>> done,
>> or any real fidelty or presences increased especially if playing Pathe,
>> Lyric, Okeh, or other verticals through the 250 horn? I would like to try
>> this on my machines but am waiting for any advise. Maybe I am best to
>> just
>> continue to play records, as I have been, on the proper machines?
>>
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