Have you buried your head into the source code to see how it works? If not,
I suggest looking at what they have done before making the statement over
performance. There is nothing I have seen that suggests they are
implementing slowness (on purpose, by mistake, or for lack of time). These
guys _know_ what the hell there're doing. The fact that Zend goes one step
further to make PHP really smoke by offering their products, tells me PHP is
a solid platform they must really trust. Further still, that they really
trust open source. Everyone has had problems with a credit card at times,
that does not reflect on the base product, or the guys that have developed,
built, maintained, and enhanced it. 

Billy Rose 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: medvitz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, April 13, 2002 10:57 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] The PHP Platform
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really have an issue with the Zend people making 
> money from their 
> products.  
> 
> The concern I have is that they sell perfoamance enhancing products.  
> Because they are selling these, I worry that performance in 
> the base Zend 
> engine will not be / is not a primary concern.  I think that 
> performance 
> should be a top priority for the 'base' engine.  People 
> outside of Zend are 
> contributing a good amount of time to creating extensions, 
> writing PEAR 
> modules, and promoting PHP, and , in my opinion , these 
> efforts are being 
> used by Zend who are holding back on performance.  
> 
> Yes... the optimizer is free.  But it doesn't always have to be.
> 
> I like PHP, I use PHP, I use PHP for clients work, so yes.... 
> I make money 
> off of PHP.  I expect that the Zend psople can as well, 
> without holding 
> back on the community that helped them get where they are today.
> 
> 
> I've got some biases here.  I was a subscriber, for a time to the 
> developer's pachage that they had towards the beginning.  For 
> $600 a year I 
> got the Encoder, the debug server and 2 client licenses.  
> They had a pay by 
> month option and I selected this, as my company wasn't going 
> to reimburse 
> me for this expense.  When my bank got bought and I had to 
> get use a new 
> card to keep up on the payments no one could do it.  I 
> emailed the people 
> who handled the credit card transactiosn, and I emailed Zend. 
>  I got no 
> responsse what-so-ever, but a lot of emails telling me they 
> couldn't bill 
> my card (all of which I replied to asking how to change my 
> card info).  I'm 
> glad you have had good expeirience with them, 'cause I 
> haven't.  And the 
> package that made the mose sense to me, they no longer offer.  
> 
> 
> Medvitz
> 
> 
> Dave Mertens wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Apr 12, 2002 at 07:32:47PM -0400, medvitz wrote:
> >> The issue I have with PHP is that the people in charge 
> have reasons for
> >> not
> >> implementing performance enhancements in the base code.  
> They charge a
> >> fair
> >> amount for add-ons that increases performance drastically.  I could
> >> actually argue that extensibility and performance on the 
> back end aren't
> >> what they should be for this reason.
> >> 
> >> Not that I want to make enemies here, but I think this is 
> a realistic
> >> criticism.  Not to mention that the Qt license that is 
> used prevents
> >> anyone from making extensions and selling them w/o an 
> additional license
> >> from the
> >> Zend people.  So they are able to make money off of the 
> hard work of all
> >> of the module contributors, which I think really blows.
> > 
> > So if i understand what your saying you don't like that 
> fact the Zend had
> > write an (very) good engine for PHP4 and now is making some 
> money with
> > it??
> > 
> > Don't forget Zend is a commercial company that is doing a 
> lot for the open
> > source community. Without them you didn't had PHP4!
> > 
> > Without all the Zend optimalisations (but with the free 
> Zend Optimzer
> > (You've installed it, right?!)) PHP4 has a good 
> performance. With the
> > money they make with their products like Zend Encoder, Zend 
> Cache, etc
> > they can continue developing on the Zend Engine.
> > 
> > They don't force you to but their products. They only say 
> that they can
> > really speed up your code.
> > Companies where i work (a official gold microsoft partner  
> ;-(  ) has also
> > bought the Zend products.
> > 
> > My boss thinks the Zend products are very cheap in comparisment with
> > Microsoft products.
> > 
> > Microsoft is doing the same thing. They provide you with a 
> 'free' IIS
> > webserver, but they have also products that enhance IIS 
> like Commerce
> > Server, Content Server, etc.
> > 
> > The fact that a commercial company like Zend is working on 
> PHP is for a
> > large number of companies very important. Most open-source 
> projects don't
> > have a proper helpdesk. Zend is providing a very good helpdesk.
> > 
> > But all this have two sides. While we (PHP developers) 
> build upon PHP4,
> > and make money with the applications we write with it. And 
> Zend is making
> > money with other Zend products and they make sure PHP is 
> good enough for
> > companies.
> > 
> > So don't trap Zend into the ground. Because of them you can 
> program OOP in
> > PHP!
> > 
> > That all from me..
> > 
> > Dave Mertens
> 
> 
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