Re: [PHP] Re: Opinions / Votes Needed

[Nathan Rixham]

Tony Marston wrote:
"Stuart" <stut...@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:a5f019de0901181015g5e2db21fn2782839ab9648...@mail.gmail.com...
2009/1/18 Tony Marston <t...@marston-home.demon.co.uk>:
"Nathan Rixham" <nrix...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:497366f5.2030...@gmail.com...
Tony Marston wrote:
"Skip Evans" <s...@bigskypenguin.com> wrote in message
news:49723137.2010...@bigskypenguin.com...
Wow, Tony, do you think in the future you could try to express 
yourself
with just a bit more civility and in a less condescending tone?
Nathan expressed some thoughts he had, politely, and when out of his 
way
to come across in a non-critical and non-confrontational manner.

Tony Marston wrote:
Absolute rubbish!
There's just no need to insult other list members like this.
Saying that someone's ideas are absolute rubbish is not an insult.
Calling him a moron would be, but I did not.
agreed, tone and meaning are so hard to convey using written words 
alone.
(you did say I was feeble brained though..)

Frankly, it's this kind of treatment that make these lists less
productive than they could be.
And you think that his ideas for changing PHP to suit his particular
programming style would be productive? I think not.
you think not; I know they'd raise my productivity in php somewhat and
increase the scope where I can use php.

It intimidates less experienced programmers from asking good 
questions,
What makes you think that he is an inexperienced programmer? What makes
you think that these are good questions? He is saying that he doesn't
like the way that PHP works and wants it changed to suit his personal
needs.
inexperienced I am not, perfect I am not. all questions are good
questions, how can things progress when nobody questions? I love the way
currently php works and I'd like (and can see a need in certain
circumstances for) a bit of optional functionality which would increase,
yes my, productivity. I'm sure though if this can increase my 
productivity
it can increase others as well - I'd like to hear from some of the spl_
and pdo_ devs on this, not to mention those who currently make orm's for
php such as the one in symphony.

lest they get treated the way Nathan was. And isn't helping out less
experienced coders one of the reasons this list exists?

And it also makes others less inclined to participate, or drop off the
list entirely.
If it stops feeble minded people from filling this forum with useless
requests then surely that's a good thing? Personally I'm sick and tired
from reading posts such as this which say "I'm used to language X, and 
my
feeble brain cannot cope with the differences, so why can't PHP be
changed to behave like language X?"
there you go with the feeble minded again tony..
a: this wasn't a useless request, it was a request for opinions and 
votes.
Yes, I think that any programmer who wants to change PHP so that it looks
and feels more like his current language of choice simply because he 
cannot
cope with the differences is feeble minded.
And I think any participant on this list who cannot reasonably respond
to perfectly reasonable suggestions

In case you have forgotten what this thread is about, the OP gave a list of 
suggested "improvements" to PHP and asked for opinions. I merely gave my 
opinion that these "improvements" would be a waste of time as they would add 
nothing to the language (IMHO, of course). How many in this frum have 
expressed any support for any of these "improvements"?

you know; other than type hinting of primatives and the ability to type 
hint that a method argument - no they haven't; which has actually really 
suprised me tbh - I was just thinking if I compeltely renamed and 
simplified the post what the outcome would be.. I think it may be 
suprising, people can be very fickle over terminology (and change).

without resorting to child-like
name-calling should reconsider their personal brand. Every time I see
you "contribute" to this list you manage to lessen the respect I have
for you as a person nevermind as a developer.

PHP would not have the OO capabilities it has if developers hadn't
compared it to other languages and said.... "yes, that would be a
useful addition". Improvements don't happen without inspiration, and
definitely won't happen if people feel threatened when they make
suggestions.

b: I'm used to PHP, it is my one of my current primary languages and has
been for a long time; I help others with both simple and complex 
problems
on this list and devote a hell of a lot of my personal time to helping
people use php to do what they want. I am definately an advocate of php,
contribute to open source projects and release packages which many
thousands of people around the world use. I've also used many other
languages and can see advantages and disadvantages to all of them; I'm 
not
so niave or feeble minded to think that php is perfect the way it is, 
it's
not - but it's a damn good language.

c: nothing I'm suggesting would have any effect on you're php the cobol
way approach, I can easily cope with the difference, can you comprehend
that it wouldn't be changing any existing functionality only adding new
*optional* functionality.
As others have already pointed out it would simply not be feasible to 
change
PHP so that it can be switched between dynamic typing to static typing at
the flick of a switch. PHP is dynamicly typed, so either get used to it 
or
switch to a different language.
I don't recall seeing anyone say it's not feasible, just that it comes
with costs other PHP developers might not be happy with. Performance
makes it tricky, BC could make it tricky and there's probably a whole
bunch of other issues that might make it difficult, but it's certainly
possible.

"not be feasible" covers "loss of performance", "loss of BC" and "a whole 
bunch of other issues". If the cost of implementing your "improvements" is 
not worth the dubious benefit then why should they considered?

well if there was a loss of bc a big bunch of issues and a markable loss 
 to performance then no; it's not worth it. However until these are all 
investigated and made known by the internals team they aren't an issue 
and thus this should be considered.

personally i can't see how bc would be broken, if it was going to be it 
would have been when type hinting method arguments was introduced (?)
loss of performance, can't see that either since the interpreter already 
checks for keywords like static in all the places mentioned, and if a 
typehint wasn't found then surely the functionality to deal with the 
types would be bypassed (?) further.. well to quote a wikipedia page on 
type systems, under the subtopic of optimization: "For example, if a 
type requires that a value must align in memory at a multiple of 4 
bytes, the compiler may be able to use more efficient machine 
instructions." - in this case it would be the interpreter (?)

again though; think this would be for the internals to discuss should 
they wish or see fit.

As far as your "if I can do it why can't you" comment goes, I don't
think anything has been said that would imply Nathan is not just as
capable of developing complex systems as you think you are. He has
expressed a wish for some additional features in PHP because he's used
other languages with those features and he likes them. Does this mean
he's inexperienced or incapable? No, and it's a shame you can't see
past the end of your superiority complex and acknowledge that.

I never said that I am superior, just that the lack of these requested 
features has not stopped me, or many other PHP programmers I would imagine, 
from writing large, complex applications with PHP. I have used many 
languages in my 35+ year career, and I am far more productive with PHP than 
I have been with all the others.


snap.. hence why I'd see a benefit in being able to use php in more 
scenarios (ones which need some static typing / type hinting of 
properties and variables) - it's all to benefit php and us developers..

I swear I've never replied so much to a topic - are you any where near 
saying either "i can see how this feature would be useful" or even "I'm 
not opposed on the proviso that it has no markable impact on current php 
usage or existing application performance" - are you tony? are you?

regards

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