Darren, et. al.,

Everything gets posted here - general syntax, database and install 
questions. Just look at the volume of php-mysql related questions; if they 
were directly posted on php-db the volume would drop to a more manageable 
level. Similarly, usage of php-install would help reduce traffic on 

VB used to be on just one list; it was broken up into several lists and all 
that resulted was a slew of cross postings, with no drop in volume.

Similarly there is no dearth of material on getting started with PHP. Maybe 
we just have to be a little tougher, collectively, and when truly 
elementary questions appear, politely and firmly direct the inquirer to the 

I'd also suggest that links to the FAQ and Tutorials be prominently 
displayed on php.net's home page. NO NO NO  - I'm wrong they ARE there, and 
pretty easy to find, and the tutorial page has links to other tutorials. 
Similarly the FAQ is easy to find, and I do believe the words "support" 
suggest where help may be found.

Maybe the problem is a poor educational system; some people are just too 
lazy to do research / properly phrase a query for a search engine / 
experiment a bit before posting?

I also suppose that the demand for dynamic web pages is driving people who 
primarily worked with html (maybe with visual tools) into a programming 
environment. They suddenly have to cope with flow control, tests and, quite 
often, use of a database too. Pretty daunting.

I do not believe a PHP-Newuser or PHP-Questions list would solve anything; 
all questions at that level can be answered through various tutorials and 
by WORKING THROUGH examples. I don't mean just cutting and pasting them, 
but changing them, breaking them, and finding out what happens.

And as for newbie-ishness, hell's bells, all languages /environments reduce 
us to that state at one time or another. I've been guilty of misplaced "}", 
most famously when I plaintively demanded why my while loop wasn't looping. 
A keen-eyed reader spotted it. Newbie question? Yes. What I was trying to 
do with the loop? Don't think so.

I've written enough - Miles

PS For the first time a certain correspondent has come perilously close to 
auto-consignment to trash; instead he needs a high level of tough love.

At 10:40 AM 8/2/01 -0400, Darren Henderson wrote:
>On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, B. van Ouwerkerk wrote:
> > There's nothing wrong with being a newbie.. the only newbie-problem I
> > see/have is the lazy one.. ask ask ask ask without taking the time to read
> > the manual or to do a search in the archive. Sure there are newbies who
> > read the manual.. get some tutorials.. thats good. They should get all the
> > support they need..
>Unfortunately this kind of thing happens on all the mailing lists I've seen
>that are devoted to questions. The real problem here is that the list is
>simply too busy. I can do no more then skim the subject lines and then
>usually delete all of it unless something jumps out at me.
>It might be helpful if some new mailing lists were created, it wouldn't be a
>perfect solution but it would help if there were some degree of self
>selecting behavior possible. Currenty all questions go to php-general. If
>there were, say, a php-newuser and a php-questions list then perhaps
>php-general could be used for slightly higher level discussions. Actually
>its probably too late to "save" php-general, hard to get people to
>change. Maybe a new list that caters to a higher level of discussion, say
>php-authoring or the like?
>Just a thought. So much tends to get lost or over looked in high volume
>mailing lists.
>Darren Henderson                                  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>                                             [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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