This is an aside ...

At 02:08 AM 8/25/01 -0400, Cristopher Daniluk wrote:
>After following this thread for a while, it seems like there is a lot of
>discrepancy between what is "success" and what isn't for PHP. I do not
>believe PHP will ever become the ubiquitous web language, if for no other
>reason than because it isn't always the right choice for your web based

Ubiquity comes from having a hammer, and treating everything like a nail. A 
person uses the tool he's comfortable with, and knows its quirks and 
shortcuts. I do not believe, despite periodic resurgence, that there will 
ever be one "master" language. Past candidates were ... Modula, ADA, 
Smalltalk  ... others? Remember the "fifth generation" computers?

The competent craftsman either uses the right tool, or knows how to quickly 
bodge something together with what is at hand. Same for programmers, of 
whatever sex.

>PHP is already a strong option in many corporate environments.
>Really from what I've seen lately, the only reason it loses out to Java, ASP
>(uggh), or other similar options is that it is difficult to find a team of
>qualified PHP developers. Even if you can get the project off the ground,
>the continual maintenance is a problem.

I believe this does a great injustice to the many fine programmers who have 
mastered one or more languages, but have not yet encountered PHP. Anyone 
who has a sound working knowledge of  Java, ASP, Python or Perl, and is a 
competent programmer, would become productive very quickly in PHP. T'aint 
that difficult. Even a VB user may come to appreciate its brevity and 
conciseness. <g>

As for the maintenance issue, that relates more to design and judicious use 
of comments. It is very easy, particularly with PHP or ASP, to produce 
pages with a horrible, hard-to-follow commingling of straight HTML and 
scripting language, so that maintenance, for anyone, is very difficult. It 
is also easy to end up with obfuscated code in any of the main line, 
structured, languages.

Miles Thompson

>Simply put, I think this means we
>have great potential to have long term success, as far as penetrating the
>corporate market. As employers start finding the qualified people out there,
>and as people re-train/relearn, and as fresh meat comes out, the job market
>will sustain our growth. I would say we don't need the multi-billion dollar
>backing to be successful as well. Linux, as you particularly mentioned, is
>shunned by a lot of suits, but it has grown - and that growth has sustained
>itself over the last 10 years, more relevantly the last 4-5. It's starting
>to get a little more attractive to suits as bigger and bigger and bigger
>companies sponsor or use it. I envision PHP going down this road as well,
>though I obviously don't expect the same grandeur that Linux has received.
>We will achieve this by doing exactly what Rasmus said - developing a good
>product. Though I must digress on the subject of technical conferences.
>While they're valuable and by all means we should be there, I believe the
>true value will come when people do our work for us - we need to prove to
>the world that it is cool to use PHP, and they'll make sure all their
>friends are cool too :)
>Cristopher Daniluk
>President & CEO
>direct: 330/530-2373
>Digital Services Network, Inc
>Unleashing Your Potential
>voice: 800/845-4822
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rasmus Lerdorf [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 1:52 AM
>To: Manuel Lemos
>Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP
> > So, it is very hard to convince the anybody to bet all the farm in PHP.
> > You may have the technical arguments, but is not enough, I'm afraid.
> >
> > You in particular, may not need to convince others to bet on PHP, but it
> > is nothing like that for most people that want to live from software
> > development. They have to put up with work/business opportunities that
> > the market offers to live from it. So, today, I'm afraid that you
> > already still have an hard time to convince people to dedicate only to
> > PHP, even those that know and believe PHP is that great.
>PHP is represented at every important technical conference right alongside
>Perl and Python.  When you hear someone talk about scripting languages,
>they will usually say Perl, Python and PHP.  I don't see any problem with
>the current state of PHP "marketing" in the technical community.
>PHP is not marketed the way Java and .NET is.  There are no multi-billion
>dollar corporations behind PHP and asking us, and apparently me
>personally, to make that happen is unrealistic.  Like Linux 5 years ago,
>PHP is adopted by the techies and somewhat shunned by the suits because
>they haven't read about it in their latest advertisement-sponsored
>We can't possibly hope to compete with Sun and Microsoft when it comes to
>suit-oriented marketing drivel.  What we can do is concentrate on what we
>do best.  Writing a solid and very focused tool.  Building the grassroot
>community and being visible at all relevant technical conferences.  If we
>continue to do this, I see no reason for any dropoff in PHP popularity
>which leads directly to more and more corporate acceptance.
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