Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this up. The new
High speed and dedicated wireless/microwave tools we have now are
pretty dang phenomenal and could lead to a decent wireless/wired
hybrid internet service.
On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss
<plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, I would
probably go about forming some sort of local isp of sorts if
enough folks around to be worth it. It's not exactly hard,
backward telcos and cable companies can figure it out, it's all
capital cost up front and who pays for it, ideally more than just you.
Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers with
DS3's to their house (one ran an isp in his basement), which
really meant we installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave them a
third of it. These were maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the
construction to get fiber to their crib alone might be $30-50k.
One customer in the middle of a lake community was more to build
into. Either they lock you into a 5yr or more contract to make
that construction cost back, or you pay it up front.
Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did
construction, so I sat down with someone and we looked at getting
fiber to my house for some baller service myself, ideally with
some employee discount... They estimated roughly $35k in cost
alone for construction, including construction street cuts to bury
fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service, and mine wasn't
terribly complex. I considered reselling to neighbors, but back
then expensive gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to
general consumers in 2003. I stuck with my cable modem, they
didn't pay that well.
Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to your
house, but at scale of cost most likely. Resell that to your
neighbors for some premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but presumes
your neighbors aren't all luddites. Some rural communities are
doing this, when AT&T and others aren't shutting them down.
-mb
On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss
<plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
I'd brush up on fiber splicing lol
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
<plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
AT&T is still fscked up. The tech came out today and told
me that the cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm
5136 feet from the box the modem talks to. He ran some
test anyway and confirmed it's not available. He told me
he has heard of no plans to bring fiber to my
neighborhood, but said it is available in a small town 5
miles up the road from me in one direction. 3 miles down
the road in the other direction is a subdivision that has
it. The fiber runs next to the highway less than a
hundred yards from here. I guess it's time to see what
other options if any are available.
On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can
only really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for
residential telco, probably more modern deployments a
full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional copper
distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their
big PED on the roads your neighborhood comes back to.
Probably something in the telcordia standards back to ma
bell days that says that is just how it is. Since the
plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it
can only modulate so high, particularly when poorly
run/done, which is why you're stuck at 12mbps.
If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run
fiber, neither will happen likely.
The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth
when DSL itself is stuck in time now at raw theoretical
limits. Combining more physical channels as these were
would be trivial, if copper were available, and telcos
wanted to support it. Someone would need to make the
modem too. Technically cable modems do this, literally
taking "channels" or slices or spectrum on the wire, and
load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32 channels
for multi-gig capabilities. Same with ethernet, taking 8
into a port-channel and balancing across them, whether
100 megabit or 400 gigabit ethernet.
AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and
always has been imho. Moving to San Jose in '99, there
was AT&T Cable TV installed by the owners, which
consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern cable
from the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box
to switch between 13 channels on one, and 13 channels on
another. First I looked at it, and was confused enough I
had to call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked
to realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for the
original @home cable isp company then supporting AT&T
cable modems! The images were even snowy, the service
was so bad even a tech couldn't (read: wouldn't)
improve. When I asked about a cable modem, they laughed
at me, so I had to get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then),
disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet
alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a finger to AT&T.
I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they couldn't
figure out even coax. My experience supporting their
customers for Cable Modem data in '99, relatively new
tech then, wasn't much better, as if the cable plant to
your house was broke, it tended to just stay broke
despite our rolling their techs to fix it. Then they'd
get angry at us for doing so and tell us to stop rolling
so many trucks to fix things.
Sigh.
Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and later Cox
actually had their shit (relatively) together, this was
an inconceivable atrocity but exactly what I'd expect of
AT&T. Thanks to them (and Comcast, all the media cartels
now really) owning the FCC now with your tax dollars,
it'll never, ever, get better either. Good thing Net
Neutrality and consumer rights weren't really needed
after all!
-mb
On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
<plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
150 Mbps, you're lucky. Here AT&T has to bond 2
pairs so I can get 25 Mbps. At least it's not
comcast. I wonder how many pairs they could bond.
Is there a technical limit or is it just a matter of
how many they want to bond? As more people abandon
landlines, that leaves more capacity for AT&T to bond
multiple pairs for internet customers.
On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss
wrote:
So I went through this moving from Cox to
CenturyLink, and pretty much as described, fairly
painless.
<tldr>
I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new
service a few years ago, and we first hit the
outside where CL ran their cabling in. It was an
ancient telephony distribution from the 90's, and
I've never had a land-line in my house since owning
it in 2002. My house built in 95 at least used cat5
or like, so I have 4 pairs to every room, so 2 pairs
I need was just fine for bonded DSL He ripped out
the old block, removing the house cabling but the
one, and isolated the particular line we needed to
my office where the modem lives, added an approved
jack, done. Bonded dsl is 2x 2-wire channels, and
they essentially load-balance 75+75mbps channels. I
have tested this to n-by gigabit upstreams.
Phone only guarantees 2 wires are available, so
telcos built on this 100 years ago are a bit
assed-out on passable high-frequency modulation
schemas in use for data and other things to move
beyond where they're at. DSL makes up for this,
particularly when double up on wires it gets better,
but still unshielded and prone to breakdown.
Problem is mostly it isn't shielded, thus capable of
very high frequency modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS, so
it will never go much further than it has today
whereas Cable scales to gigabits with channelization
and QAM modulation at 32bit rates.
VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per channel,
and 2x of these get you to around CL's bonded DSL
limits. This also includes your distance
limitations to your local DSLAM, or regional router
that terminates your data that degrades this
eventually further you are from it, so it's a bit
tricky. It's been stuck here for years, and pretty
much at life end. This is why my cousin living half
a mile from me can only get 75mbps from CL and I can
with bonded @150mbps here. Old crap network there.
Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you whatever
to ~100GbE, but depends on how your provider does
low-rate Passive Optical Networking (PON) today for
residential fiber. Not quite the same as a business
data network, but any fiber is better than copper
networks.
Why Centurylink's only hope for the future is fiber
vs. copper in new builds. I like my 25yr old house
still, so no fiber for me ever. Unless I street cut
my block for fiber myself, which I've considered,
just need to get my neighbors to buy into me as
their new gigabit isp. ;)
-mb
On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
<plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
Ok. I won't complain if I have to go out and
buy a 4 conductor phone cord.
On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:
My understanding of this is that they will
activate the second pair that is commonly used
in the RJ-43 port in your wall. This will allow
2 lines active to the device.
Changes inside might need to happen if your
residence does not have 4 wire (2 line)
compatibility. (IE 2 pairs to the jack vs 1 pair)
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
<mailto:plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>> wrote:
Where I live, I get AT&T for my DSL
service. I've signed up for an
upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25. I finally got
someone there who would tell
me why a technician visit is required for
the upgrade. They're bonding 2
pairs to supply the faster speed here.
I've read up online about DSL
bonding. I understand that one pair will
carry some of the data, and
the other pair will carry some. But one
thing I didn't find out was
whether or not anything will change between
the wall jack and the
modem. Is everything done outside or do
they have to come inside? I
currently have a 2 conductor cord
connecting my modem to the wall jack.
Will that have to be replaced with a 4
conductor cord? Do they install
an extra box outside or inside? I guess
all will be answered on the
18th when the guy is scheduled to be
here. I'm really curious how this
works.
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