Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this up. The
new High speed and dedicated wireless/microwave tools we have now
are pretty dang phenomenal and could lead to a decent
wireless/wired hybrid internet service.
On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, I
would probably go about forming some sort of local isp of
sorts if enough folks around to be worth it. It's not
exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies can figure
it out, it's all capital cost up front and who pays for it,
ideally more than just you.
Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers with
DS3's to their house (one ran an isp in his basement), which
really meant we installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave
them a third of it. These were maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits,
but the construction to get fiber to their crib alone might
be $30-50k. One customer in the middle of a lake community
was more to build into. Either they lock you into a 5yr or
more contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay
it up front.
Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did
construction, so I sat down with someone and we looked at
getting fiber to my house for some baller service myself,
ideally with some employee discount... They estimated
roughly $35k in cost alone for construction, including
construction street cuts to bury fiber, permitting, etc, let
alone service, and mine wasn't terribly complex. I
considered reselling to neighbors, but back then expensive
gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to general
consumers in 2003. I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't
pay that well.
Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to
your house, but at scale of cost most likely. Resell that to
your neighbors for some premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but
presumes your neighbors aren't all luddites. Some rural
communities are doing this, when AT&T and others aren't
shutting them down.
-mb
On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
I'd brush up on fiber splicing lol
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
AT&T is still fscked up. The tech came out today and
told me that the cutoff for the service is 4800 feet
and I'm 5136 feet from the box the modem talks to.
He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not
available. He told me he has heard of no plans to
bring fiber to my neighborhood, but said it is
available in a small town 5 miles up the road from me
in one direction. 3 miles down the road in the other
direction is a subdivision that has it. The fiber
runs next to the highway less than a hundred yards
from here. I guess it's time to see what other
options if any are available.
On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they
can only really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise
for residential telco, probably more modern
deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their
traditional copper distribution isn't built for it
unless commercial (their big PED on the roads your
neighborhood comes back to. Probably something in
the telcordia standards back to ma bell days that
says that is just how it is. Since the plants are
non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can
only modulate so high, particularly when poorly
run/done, which is why you're stuck at 12mbps.
If they had to change your home copper, they'd just
run fiber, neither will happen likely.
The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more
bandwidth when DSL itself is stuck in time now at
raw theoretical limits. Combining more physical
channels as these were would be trivial, if copper
were available, and telcos wanted to support it.
Someone would need to make the modem too.
Technically cable modems do this, literally taking
"channels" or slices or spectrum on the wire, and
load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32
channels for multi-gig capabilities. Same with
ethernet, taking 8 into a port-channel and balancing
across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
ethernet.
AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still,
and always has been imho. Moving to San Jose in
'99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the
owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax
ala modern cable from the outside, and required a
physical a/b switch box to switch between 13
channels on one, and 13 channels on another. First
I looked at it, and was confused enough I had to
call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked to
realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for
the original @home cable isp company then supporting
AT&T cable modems! The images were even snowy, the
service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read:
wouldn't) improve. When I asked about a cable modem,
they laughed at me, so I had to get DSL (phat
1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless cable tv
(yay usenet alt.binaries.video even then), and threw
up a finger to AT&T.
I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they
couldn't figure out even coax. My experience
supporting their customers for Cable Modem data in
'99, relatively new tech then, wasn't much better,
as if the cable plant to your house was broke, it
tended to just stay broke despite our rolling their
techs to fix it. Then they'd get angry at us for
doing so and tell us to stop rolling so many trucks
to fix things.
Sigh.
Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and
later Cox actually had their shit (relatively)
together, this was an inconceivable atrocity but
exactly what I'd expect of AT&T. Thanks to them (and
Comcast, all the media cartels now really) owning
the FCC now with your tax dollars, it'll never,
ever, get better either. Good thing Net Neutrality
and consumer rights weren't really needed after all!
-mb
On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
150 Mbps, you're lucky. Here AT&T has to bond
2 pairs so I can get 25 Mbps. At least it's
not comcast. I wonder how many pairs they could
bond. Is there a technical limit or is it just
a matter of how many they want to bond? As more
people abandon landlines, that leaves more
capacity for AT&T to bond multiple pairs for
internet customers.
On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via
PLUG-discuss wrote:
So I went through this moving from Cox to
CenturyLink, and pretty much as described,
fairly painless.
<tldr>
I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new
service a few years ago, and we first hit the
outside where CL ran their cabling in. It was
an ancient telephony distribution from the
90's, and I've never had a land-line in my
house since owning it in 2002. My house built
in 95 at least used cat5 or like, so I have 4
pairs to every room, so 2 pairs I need was just
fine for bonded DSL He ripped out the old
block, removing the house cabling but the one,
and isolated the particular line we needed to
my office where the modem lives, added an
approved jack, done. Bonded dsl is 2x 2-wire
channels, and they essentially load-balance
75+75mbps channels. I have tested this to n-by
gigabit upstreams.
Phone only guarantees 2 wires are available, so
telcos built on this 100 years ago are a bit
assed-out on passable high-frequency modulation
schemas in use for data and other things to
move beyond where they're at. DSL makes up for
this, particularly when double up on wires it
gets better, but still unshielded and prone to
breakdown. Problem is mostly it isn't
shielded, thus capable of very high frequency
modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS, so it will never
go much further than it has today whereas Cable
scales to gigabits with channelization and QAM
modulation at 32bit rates.
VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per
channel, and 2x of these get you to around CL's
bonded DSL limits. This also includes your
distance limitations to your local DSLAM, or
regional router that terminates your data that
degrades this eventually further you are from
it, so it's a bit tricky. It's been stuck here
for years, and pretty much at life end. This
is why my cousin living half a mile from me can
only get 75mbps from CL and I can with bonded
@150mbps here. Old crap network there.
Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you
whatever to ~100GbE, but depends on how your
provider does low-rate Passive Optical
Networking (PON) today for residential fiber.
Not quite the same as a business data network,
but any fiber is better than copper networks.
Why Centurylink's only hope for the future is
fiber vs. copper in new builds. I like my 25yr
old house still, so no fiber for me ever.
Unless I street cut my block for fiber myself,
which I've considered, just need to get my
neighbors to buy into me as their new gigabit
isp. ;)
-mb
On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Ok. I won't complain if I have to go out
and buy a 4 conductor phone cord.
On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:
My understanding of this is that they will
activate the second pair that is commonly
used in the RJ-43 port in your wall. This
will allow 2 lines active to the device.
Changes inside might need to happen if
your residence does not have 4 wire (2
line) compatibility. (IE 2 pairs to the
jack vs 1 pair)
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via
PLUG-discuss
<[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>
wrote:
Where I live, I get AT&T for my DSL
service. I've signed up for an
upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25. I finally
got someone there who would tell
me why a technician visit is required
for the upgrade. They're bonding 2
pairs to supply the faster speed here.
I've read up online about DSL
bonding. I understand that one pair
will carry some of the data, and
the other pair will carry some. But
one thing I didn't find out was
whether or not anything will change
between the wall jack and the
modem. Is everything done outside or
do they have to come inside? I
currently have a 2 conductor cord
connecting my modem to the wall jack.
Will that have to be replaced with a 4
conductor cord? Do they install
an extra box outside or inside? I
guess all will be answered on the
18th when the guy is scheduled to be
here. I'm really curious how this
works.
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