On 2022-08-28 02:43, James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss wrote:
i think most of the "php isn't a programming language" is holdover
from the days where you'd separate scripting from programming. back
in ze day (but not too far back) you were billed per cycle and meg (or
just had a very limited amount). control of data structures and
instructions is paramount in such an environment. virtual machines
(interpretters) were hideously inefficient in such a space, although
still useful for operators (usually in the form of shells and control
languages). the programmer vs operator divide was real 'cause the
programmers got the "real work" done, and operators controlled the
keys to the kingdom.
In the early 80's I heard about operators. Never did meet an operator.
does this still matter? sure. the best way to save on electricity
(crypto), battery (as in phone lifespan), or time (fin-tech) is to
make sure your program executes as quickly as possible. does this
matter to most people for most things? not really.
I assume Java is not all that efficient. And from what I can tell it is
in use on small devices like phones.
having quick
time-to-market is often more important than efficiency on hardware.
any business is a matter of tradeoffs and the market decides where
that balance is now and is kind enough to update itself for us.
each language is a collection of tradeoffs, be they forced behavior,
inefficient memory management, how they're translated to executable
instructions, etc. the only real advice i've seen worth its salt is
"be a polyglot" from both bjorn and kernighan in separate interviews.
once you have a couple programming languages under your belt you'll
find that learning new ones is easy.
going back to the original question of if php is a "real" programming
language, of course it is! it has the basic 16 operations necessary
to be turing complete. php is far from ideal for most things in most
spaces, as are all other languages with their own tradeoffs. as you
expand your capabilities, you'll be more able to leverage better tools
for the problems you approach.
Interesting statement "it has the basic 16 operations necessary to be
turing complete.
I have not heard the word "turing" in years... maybe like decades.
I seem to recall there was some, where they academics?, that published
what makes a programming language? I need to look up "turing" and
refresh my memory.
Please expand on "turing".
On Sun, Aug 28, 2022 at 1:09 AM David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss
<[email protected]> wrote:
My opinion might not count for much since I don’t really program
with PHP, although I spent about a year with V4 in 2000. I do enjoy
looking at the language updates and seeing what small steps the PHP
language Gods take each time it’s updated. In contrast to C++, PHP
seems to be evolving at a snail’s pace.
The issues about interpreted (aka, “scripting”) languages is
bogus. Python is now the #1 most popular programming language in the
world, and it’s interpreted. So there goes that theory.
https://skilldeck.org/learning/best-programming-language-to-learn
[2]
My take on PHP is that it has been in a stuck-in-the-middle state
for >20 years, between being a “structured/procedural
programming” and “object-oriented” language. Kind of like C++
was before V1.1 or so was introduced.
Still, while you can use both to create OO code, you can also use
both to write horrid code that runs just fine and doesn’t use any
of the class-related language constructs.
Over the years, C++ has been embraced by the OOP community and you
don’t see anybody demanding that C++ compilers be able to compile
any old C code. The C standard is still evolving and it keeps taking
on bits and pieces of things inspired by C++, but it’s really
still not an OOP language.
But I’ve heard PHP coders constantly complaining about the fact
that the use of classes in PHP kills performance. Yeah, as if Python
users think that’s even relevant! Python is 100% OOP right out of
the gate, and they seem proud of it. Both are interpreted, and both
are probably about as efficient compared with a compiled language.
(Are there any performance comparisons between equivalent PHP and
Python apps?)
If an OOP-based interpreted language can attain the "#1 most popular
language” slot and nobody cares about the little bit of overhead
that the OO part imposes on the execution time, then perhaps it’s
time for PHP coders to suck-it-up and learn how to REALLY code in
OOP idioms! Until then, it’s the PHP programming community
that’s shooting itself in the feet, not the language. Get rid of
the “holes” in the language that allow it to process old code
that breaks all of the encapsulation rules and make the use of
classes more direct rather than forcing the use of squirrly syntax
that is constantly reminding people “this isn’t really an
object-oriented language … but you can use it that way … IF YOU
INSIST”.
This is 2022. Nobody teaches plain old structured/procedural
programming any more — they don’t even say they’re teaching
OOP, it’s just what all modern languages support today. Except
PHP, which cannot seem to decide if it’s ever going to grow up and
let go of its procedural roots.
(Perhaps a big part of the problem is all of the old procedural PHP
code that people are scared to refactor. So instead they just start
over in Python?)
-David Schwartz
On Aug 27, 2022, at 7:11 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
<[email protected]> wrote:
Just in time to add another thread that might be as intense as the
sysd...etc thread.
For years I have heard that people say PHP is not a real language.
One guy says interpreted languages are not real programming
languages, they are scripting languages. I guess way back when I
was an xBase developer I must have not been a real programmer.
Back in the day The only compiled xBase was Clipper Summer 87 by
Nantucket Corp. I think it was possible to compile xBase code but
I never did except with Clipper Summer 87. I think Visual Fox was
compiled...
Another says the barrier to entry makes it possible for
non-professional programmers to get hired and to mess up the code
base. Isn't that a hiring manager's issue?
I think PHP is a great language and a lot of others must think so
too.
I really liked the decade long ride with PHP 5. I think 7 brought
some good changes in the area of speed and the removal of Register
globals.
PHP must be doing something right because it is run by upwards of
80% of the websites on the Internet.
I do think the PHP team is moving too fast. We now have version
8.
So what is wrong with PHP and where are we going in such a hurry?
And finally why does PHP have to be anything but simple stupid?
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