Who are your "beginners"? Beginning calculus students are thrown by right to left evaluation because they are used to Texas Instruments calculators' Algebraic Logic System. For them J is not a nice calculator. I gave them rules for how to do arithmetic calculations with J, and showed them only explicit programming. These were university students. Roger has reported pleasant experiences with young students, and I notice your son was 10!
Kip Murray Sent from my iPad On Nov 30, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Bo Jacoby <bojac...@yahoo.dk> wrote: > J is a rich language, and it might be a good idea to define an elementary > subset for beginners. J is a nice calculator for elementary computations. You > can do a lot of computing without knowing anything about binomial > coefficients and taylor expansions and capped forks. If you need to > understand everything in order to be happy, then you may be unhappy. I taught > my son elementary APL when he was 10 years old, and he loved it! > > - Bo > > > > >> ________________________________ >> Fra: Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> >> Til: programm...@jsoftware.com >> Sendt: 16:06 fredag den 30. november 2012 >> Emne: Re: [Jprogramming] @: and capped fork >> >> I too have felt the need for Really Prominent Pages (RPPs?) and I've >> regretfully come to conclude that the only workable solution for the >> beginner is the forum, as Dan hints. Hence certain issues will turn up >> over and over again in the threads. >> >> Experienced programmers, trying to pick-up J from the reference manual >> as they go along, are especially vulnerable. What "experience" can >> prepare you for J? >> >> Trains are indeed a pratfall, and I think it boils down to this. When you see >> f g h noun NB. (1) >> even if you've read and re-read all the stuff about J's bracketing >> rules, you're still tempted to think you can write: >> v=: f g h NB. (2) >> v noun >> ...and it gives a different result. So you begin to suspect J is only >> for people addicted to brain-teasers. It doesn't help to be told that >> (2) is a "train" and (1) isn't. (sic) >> >> But I didn't start this thread just to gripe (yet again) about the >> opaqueness of J and its documentation. Researching computer >> (un)usability and how to fix it has been my career, and I was drawn >> into J in the first place by these very considerations. It has proved >> a rich hunting-ground, even more so than APL, which hitherto had been >> the best I'd encountered. Industrial experience has taught me you need >> to spend millions to write good documentation -- unless you want to >> stick to telling people things they know perfectly well already, which >> J emphatically doesn't. >> >> Oh, don't get the idea I only value J the way a doctor values a sick >> patient. Having climbed the learning curve, it's my language of >> choice, and I don't regret it. Why, I'd even pay good money for it. >> (And if you're an APL user you say that with a gulp!) >> >> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 2:50 AM, Alex Giannakopoulos >> <aeg...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: >>> I agree that all this needs more and *clear* and *visible* explanation! >>> It was the first question I asked, and in the two+ years (on-and-off) that >>> I have been mucking around with J I have seen asked on this forum umpteen >>> times. >>> I have also seen it debated at length (and breadth and depth). By >>> experienced users, experts and newbies alike. Unfortunately these >>> discussions get buried in the (not easily searchable) list archives and the >>> question keeps popping up, kind of like Nosferatu. >>> >>> Maybe we need a REALLY prominent page explaining it once and for all. >>> I must add that for someone coming from another language, the idea of >>> trains is massively alien (and a pain until you see their utility). >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
