People with prior exposure to traditional programming languages also seem to have trouble with array-based approaches as well though it's a more natural way to think about many kind of problems.
On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 1:25 PM, km <k...@math.uh.edu> wrote: > Who are your "beginners"? Beginning calculus students are thrown by right > to left evaluation because they are used to Texas Instruments calculators' > Algebraic Logic System. For them J is not a nice calculator. I gave them > rules for how to do arithmetic calculations with J, and showed them only > explicit programming. These were university students. Roger has reported > pleasant experiences with young students, and I notice your son was 10! > > Kip Murray > > Sent from my iPad > > > On Nov 30, 2012, at 10:17 AM, Bo Jacoby <bojac...@yahoo.dk> wrote: > > > J is a rich language, and it might be a good idea to define an > elementary subset for beginners. J is a nice calculator for elementary > computations. You can do a lot of computing without knowing anything about > binomial coefficients and taylor expansions and capped forks. If you need > to understand everything in order to be happy, then you may be unhappy. I > taught my son elementary APL when he was 10 years old, and he loved it! > > > > - Bo > > > > > > > > > >> ________________________________ > >> Fra: Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> > >> Til: programm...@jsoftware.com > >> Sendt: 16:06 fredag den 30. november 2012 > >> Emne: Re: [Jprogramming] @: and capped fork > >> > >> I too have felt the need for Really Prominent Pages (RPPs?) and I've > >> regretfully come to conclude that the only workable solution for the > >> beginner is the forum, as Dan hints. Hence certain issues will turn up > >> over and over again in the threads. > >> > >> Experienced programmers, trying to pick-up J from the reference manual > >> as they go along, are especially vulnerable. What "experience" can > >> prepare you for J? > >> > >> Trains are indeed a pratfall, and I think it boils down to this. When > you see > >> f g h noun NB. (1) > >> even if you've read and re-read all the stuff about J's bracketing > >> rules, you're still tempted to think you can write: > >> v=: f g h NB. (2) > >> v noun > >> ...and it gives a different result. So you begin to suspect J is only > >> for people addicted to brain-teasers. It doesn't help to be told that > >> (2) is a "train" and (1) isn't. (sic) > >> > >> But I didn't start this thread just to gripe (yet again) about the > >> opaqueness of J and its documentation. Researching computer > >> (un)usability and how to fix it has been my career, and I was drawn > >> into J in the first place by these very considerations. It has proved > >> a rich hunting-ground, even more so than APL, which hitherto had been > >> the best I'd encountered. Industrial experience has taught me you need > >> to spend millions to write good documentation -- unless you want to > >> stick to telling people things they know perfectly well already, which > >> J emphatically doesn't. > >> > >> Oh, don't get the idea I only value J the way a doctor values a sick > >> patient. Having climbed the learning curve, it's my language of > >> choice, and I don't regret it. Why, I'd even pay good money for it. > >> (And if you're an APL user you say that with a gulp!) > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 30, 2012 at 2:50 AM, Alex Giannakopoulos > >> <aeg...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > >>> I agree that all this needs more and *clear* and *visible* explanation! > >>> It was the first question I asked, and in the two+ years (on-and-off) > that > >>> I have been mucking around with J I have seen asked on this forum > umpteen > >>> times. > >>> I have also seen it debated at length (and breadth and depth). By > >>> experienced users, experts and newbies alike. Unfortunately these > >>> discussions get buried in the (not easily searchable) list archives > and the > >>> question keeps popping up, kind of like Nosferatu. > >>> > >>> Maybe we need a REALLY prominent page explaining it once and for all. > >>> I must add that for someone coming from another language, the idea of > >>> trains is massively alien (and a pain until you see their utility). > >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > -- Devon McCormick, CFA ^me^ at acm. org is my preferred e-mail ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
