Visual Studio is an extensible development environment available on Windows platform. It is used mostly by companies developing large commercial software systems.
My experience with TeX is more limited. Can one design fonts with TeX system and then convert them so that operating system can consume them? Or do they work with the operating systems out of the box (which I doubt but not sure)? If you and others design a font which maps J vocabulary to nice single symbols I could incorporate it in my VS studio work as an optional setting you turn on and off. But that as a later stage feature, unless the "general" mood about this changes. I think Skip's arguments could generate more excitement about this idea, as he showed up the plethora of positive ramifications which seem to offset the negatives. From Skip's expose one could conclude that Ken was just a bit ahead of his time, but that now is just the right time. On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 1:35 AM, J. Patrick Harrington <[email protected]>wrote: > Yes, I'm afraid that this idea is a zombie that many > experienced Jer's wish would stay dead! But it is such > a beautiful corpse! My idea is not to make the symbol > set as close to APL as possible -- far from it. The APL > set was limited too, by the IBM typeball. While I don't > have a copy of "A Programming Language", this point was > made clear to me when I watched the (*must see*) interview > on "The Origins of APL - 1974", posted at > > http://www.myspace.com/video/**vid/60771080<http://www.myspace.com/video/vid/60771080> > At one point, discussing the code written to describe the > system 360, the "proto-APL" code is shown on the screen. > All those subscripts and superscripts! Great. Wouldn't it > be more economical to use superscripts for rank: (verb)superscript 2 to > represent (verb)"2 -- and maybe a subscript for the left argument.. The > idea would be to > design the most compact and expressive symbol set we could > imagine; at some point implementation will not be a problem. > I couldn't care less about confusing APLers (there aren't that many > anyway). Maybe a project for Sunday afternoons -- > I could start by trying to convert a J script into TeX :-) > > Patrick > > P.S. To reveal how out of it I am, I have no idea what > Visual Studio is. > > > On Fri, 5 Apr 2013, Gilles Kirouac wrote: > >> >> Is great Visual Studio integration for J desirable? Definitely yes. >> >> >> J using an enriched APL character set? I am not so sure. >> >> Devon said it and I agree. IMO, APL characters for J is not >> such a good idea. >> >> At first glance, it appears doable and attractive to those who >> have got used to the beauty and utility of the APL character set. >> I thought so a while ago. >> >> But J _is not_ APL. To deal with multidimensional args, APL adds >> an axis to many operators, while J uses the notion of rank >> with the execution of _every_ verb. Just think of $ Shape vs rau >> (reshape in APL) which is a common pitfall for APLers coming to J. >> >> APLers would believe they can write APL and execute it in J. >> The resulting confusion would be immense and disserving everyone >> in the long run. >> >> The difficulty with the J Vocabulary is learning something new. >> Once you do, the current vocabulary works well, _very_ well in fact, >> and is not the major obstacle perceived by some APLers. Getting used >> to the pervasiness of rank is much much more challenging. >> >> ~ Gilles >> >> >> ---------- Original Message ----------- >> From: Steven Taylor <[email protected]> >> To: Programming forum <[email protected]> >> Sent: Fri, 5 Apr 2013 17:59:40 +0100 >> Subject: Re: [Jprogramming] J and APL symbols >> >> "Selling current J editors to somebody who is doing their >>> programming in Visual Studio all day long, it's a hard sell. They'll >>> most probably just laugh at you..." >>> >>> For me, I don't mind making an exception when it comes to maths based >>> functional / vector based stuff... but opening up J to other >>> developers is a good thing. >>> >>> biological memory goes further with J. Interestingly, some F# developers >>> go out of their way to switch off VS features. You may find a different >>> mindset at play in this space. I don't profess to know the >>> answer... just thought you might like to hear a few thoughts. >>> >>> On 5 April 2013 07:43, Greg Borota <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Selling current J editors to somebody who is doing their programming in >>>> Visual Studio all day long, it's a hard sell. They'll most probably just >>>> laugh at you... >>>> >>>> And when you deal with huge programs developed over timespans like years >>>> and with many developers, biological memory starts to show its >>>> limits.... >>>> And then Intellisense, QuickInfo, quickly jumping around, etc. are your >>>> friends on which you don't want to easily give up. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 12:46 AM, Steven Taylor <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'd like better VS integration, but I can't really justify the effort >>>>> needed since JHS / GTK are refreshingly simple + cross-platform. I am >>>>> looking forward to trying out Chris' new IDE too. On APL symbols... I >>>>> still only know a few of them. Intellisense to the dictionary would be >>>>> more useful (ie. strengthen what is already working). More useful >>>>> >>>> again >> >>> would be Intellisense to J libraries. >>>>> >>>>> On the dictionary, since in J we're talking about notation as a tool of >>>>> thought, and the vocabulary is small, isn't it better to commit this to >>>>> memory? Probably I'm forgetting how foreign this J vocabulary once >>>>> >>>> looked >>>> >>>>> to me. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 4 April 2013 22:06, Greg Borota <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> My work would be usable only by those who can run Visual Studio >>>>>> >>>>> binaries, >>>> >>>>> either the paid ones (preferably and easier) or the free Visual >>>>>> >>>>> Studio >> >>> Shell. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Raul Miller <[email protected]> >>>>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> What Greg was describing would be optional (and out of scope for >>>>>>> >>>>>> many >> >>> users). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> FYI, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Raul >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Peter B. Kessler >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hope you can make this kind of change uniform, so that if I >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> were >> >>> debugging >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> or tracing, etc., I saw my program in the same character set >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> that I >> >>> used >>>>>> >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> write my program. Otherwise I can't use the powerful parallel >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> processor >>>>>> >>>>>>> that is my vision system to match things up. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ... peter >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 04/04/13 12:44, Greg Borota wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What I have in mind is just a display thing. Say you Select All >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>> Copy/Paste the content of the editor window, you still get ASCII >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> chars >>>>> >>>>>> only. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> E.g: In GTK Term whenever you enter y as the verb argument it >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> changes >>>>> >>>>>> color >>>>>>>>> and becomes italic (at least under Windows). What if you were to >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> display >>>>>> >>>>>>> the omega character instead? But behind the scenes you still >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> hold >> >>> y >>>> >>>>> ASCII >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> char indeed. Maybe those who already worked on GTK editor could >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> add >>>> >>>>> their >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> feedback. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And this could be an optional setting which one could turn on >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> and >> >>> off >>>>> >>>>>> as >>>>>> >>>>>>> wanted. Just a display setting. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Devon McCormick < >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm not sure this is really such a good idea. J is its own >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> language >>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> mapping some J symbols to APL ones could be misleading. Also, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> as >> >>> much >>>>>> >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> like the look of APL, I'm happy not to deal with the continuing >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> hiccups >>>>>> >>>>>>> caused by the character set. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> At last year's APL Moot, I showed my fellow mooters that I >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> could >> >>> cut >>>>> >>>>>> and >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> paste Chinese characters into an emacs session with no apparent >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> problem >>>>>> >>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> some of the APL characters from a website did not come over >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> cleanly. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 1:57 PM, Greg Borota <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think it might be a quicker path to use ASCII behind the >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> scenes >>>> >>>>> still >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> have some editor/term software (Visual Studio in this case) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> display >>>>> >>>>>> words >>>>>>>>>>> of interest as APL symbols. Like in MS Word where you type (c) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> and >>>> >>>>> it's >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> automatically displayed as Copyright Symbol ©. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This could even be an Options settings where one could turn it >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> on >>>> >>>>> and >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> off. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I think this is doable with reasonable effort with Visual >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Studio, >>>> >>>>> but >>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> am >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> thinking the idea could be used with Qt or GKT also. Unless I >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> am >> >>> missing >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> something which I might see only after starting the actual >>>>>>>>>>> implementation >>>>>>>>>>> :-) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am very new to APL land, but I really liked the APL symbols. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> When >>>>> >>>>>> I >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> started with computers I was puzzled why math symbols were not >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> used >>>>> >>>>>> by C >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> (C >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> was my first higher level language after Assembly)... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 12:41 PM, PMA < >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What a wonderful idea! I wish I had >>>>>>>>>>>> the competence & time to pursue it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Pete >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> J. Patrick Harrington wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ... My dream would be to have J expressible in APL-like >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> characters (there isn't a one-to-one correspondance, though >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> most >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>> symbols >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> could be carried over). Then J could have two >>>>>>>>>>>>> forms, like hieroglyphic and demotic Egyptian: ASCII J for >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> use >> >>> in emails & everywhere, and APL-like J for use on your main >>>>>>>>>>>>> machine: more compact and beautiful to look at. I really >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> hope >> >>> that such a project gets under way. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------****----------------------------** >>>> --**--------- >>>> >>> - >> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>> For information about J forums see >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/****forums.htm<http://www.jsoftware.com/**forums.htm> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.jsoftware.com/**forums.htm<http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm> >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------* >>>>>> *--------- >>>>>> >>>>> - >> >>> For information about J forums see >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/**forums.htm<http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Devon McCormick, CFA >>>>>>>>>> ^me^ at acm. >>>>>>>>>> org is my >>>>>>>>>> preferred e-mail >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >>>>>> --------- >>>>>> >>>>> - >> >>> For information about J forums see >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/**forums.htm<http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >>>>> ---------- >>>>> >>>>>> For information about J forums see >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/**forums.htm<http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >>>>> ---------- >>>>> >>>>>> For information about J forums see >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/**forums.htm<http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >>>> ---------- >>>> >>>>> For information about J forums see >>>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/**forums.htm<http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm> >>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >>>>>> --------- >>>>>> >>>>> - >> >>> For information about J forums see >>>>>> >>>>> http://www.jsoftware.com/**forums.htm<http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm> >> >>> >>>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >>>>> ---------- >>>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/** >>>>> forums.htm <http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >>>> ---------- >>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/** >>>> forums.htm <http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >>> ---------- >>> For information about J forums see >>> http://www.jsoftware.com/**forums.htm<http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm> >>> >> ------- End of Original Message ------- >> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >> ---------- >> For information about J forums see >> http://www.jsoftware.com/**forums.htm<http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm> >> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------** > ---------- > For information about J forums see > http://www.jsoftware.com/**forums.htm<http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
