Here's my impression of Henry's proposal: http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Voctest/eq_iac2 ...and I've drafted target pages for the links.
Henry originally proposed putting the rank tag "inside the parentheses that give the English name for the primitive" ...Here's what I think he means: http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Voctest/eq_iac ...The trouble with that is I don't know how to make it clickable. Any sort of formatting gets ignored in the: == {heading} == BTW -- I've added a "Thru to: Dictionary" link. This duplicates the See Also (no harm in that) but is in a handier position. There's also room on that "tag bar" (let's call it) for further links, eg: >> << On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Henry Rich <henryhr...@nc.rr.com> wrote: > If all the change ends up requiring is an edit to every valence of every > verb, adding a string to the Wiki page, that's certainly feasible. I might > even be able to dragoon a class of students into doing it. The key thing > is to work out the design. > > Agreed that the numbers 0 0 0 are baffling to the beginner. I have taught > enough beginners to vouch for this. > > So, what is to be done? Maybe we can settle it in this Forum, with the > participation of all. > > 0. Where should rank be indicated? > > 1. What words should indicate it? > > 2. What should those words link to? > > 3. Is more information needed? > > I'll start with my proposal: > > 0. inside the parentheses that give the English name for the primitive > > 1. for monads, choose from > 'operates on individual atoms of y' > 'operates on lists of y' > 'operates on tables of y' > 'operates on y as a whole' > > for dyads, > 'operates on individual atoms of x and y' > 'operates on lists of x and y' > 'operates on lists of x, and on y as a whole' > etc. > > 2. Each string will link to a page or subpage describing /that rank > individually/. Rank 0 will go to a description of rank 0, rank 1 _ to a > description of rank 1 _, etc. There will be a separate page describing the > general theory of verb rank, which will be linked by the individual pages > for when the beginner is ready for it. > > 3. No. > > Henry Rich > > > On 1/20/2014 11:42 AM, Ian Clark wrote: > >> @Henry -- your argument did occur to me, just after I pressed the send >> button... >> >> I think I agree with what you say, pivoted heavily on the word >> "painlessly". >> >> If I'd been brutally honest with myself I'd have admitted that I'd been >> working out how to implement Brian's suggestion and seen it would have >> been >> awkward at this late stage. The feature should have been incorporated when >> the original set of stubs was generated. It's a design failure that it >> wasn't. >> >> I did try to anticipate the need to retrofit a new template to existing >> content. But I wouldn't like to have to try it in practice. >> >> I conjecture that the bare Ranks, e.g. _ _ _ -is baffling to the novice. >> Like all conjectures this needs proof (which I don't have and can't get). >> The guiding light of NuVoc is to lean over backwards to avoid being >> baffling. >> >> But something is needed -- and it needs to work as you prescribe, and to >> be >> effective, else it isn't worth doing. I confess I don't know the answer. >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:20 PM, Henry Rich <henryhr...@nc.rr.com> wrote: >> >> Agreed that the important thing for NuVoc is to give the beginner what >>> they need, in a form that they can understand without having to follow a >>> trail. >>> >>> But asking a genuine beginner whether they need to see the ranks is like >>> asking a congressman a question about economics, and just as likely to >>> discover the right answer. >>> >>> Here's a proposal to consider: >>> >>> in http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Vocabulary/ltdot, for example, where >>> we >>> now have >>> >>> <. y (Floor) >>> >>> we could instead have >>> >>> <. y (Floor, operates on individual atoms) >>> >>> The 'operates on individual atoms' bit would link to a discussion of verb >>> rank. >>> >>> By seeing the rank described verbally, right there on every verb, a >>> beginner would notice this subtle difference between verbs, and would >>> eventually be tempted to understand what it means. >>> >>> The questions posted to this Forum prove that you can't survive as a J >>> coder without understanding rank. I think NuVoc should accept the >>> mission >>> of teaching the beginner that fact, as painlessly as possible. >>> >>> >>> Henry Rich >>> >>> >>> >>> On 1/20/2014 10:47 AM, Ian Clark wrote: >>> >>> @Brian - Thanks for your appreciation. It's encouraging. Throughout I've >>>> had the niggling feeling that the J Dic was hard to improve on, and I >>>> was >>>> adding little or no value. >>>> >>>> Unlike the J Dic, NuVoc doesn't show the Rank(s) of a verb. The original >>>> idea was for it to do so. But I think that's advanced information for a >>>> beginner, and best seen by clicking through to the J Dic via the "See >>>> Also". >>>> >>>> Others will vehemently disagree, and I think I can predict who they'll >>>> be. >>>> >>>> But maybe I'll come to see that a bold button in the same place on every >>>> title line to click through to the Dic entry would be good, if not >>>> essential. >>>> >>>> If anyone wants to go through all the verbs and add the Ranks to the >>>> title >>>> lines, I'm not going to throw a tantrum. Not if its done consistently, >>>> and >>>> right. >>>> >>>> Can we hear the authoritative voice of a genuine beginner about this? >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:45 AM, Brian Schott <schott.br...@gmail.com >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>> Ian, >>>> >>>>> >>>>> That is amazing. Thank you for that great resource. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know if I dare ask the following, but, here goes. Is there any >>>>> way >>>>> to add a feature -- I think it's called a tool-tip -- to the main page >>>>> which would show the rank of each verb when someone hovers over the >>>>> primitive? If so, would other folks use such a feature? >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> (B=) >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ---------- >>>>> >>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ---------- >>>> >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
