@Henry -- Thanks for offering your class of students for making the finally-agreed changes. I appreciate the offer. But there's the beginnings of a system growing in my mind, and I'd like to handle it all myself.
On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 4:08 AM, Ian Clark <earthspo...@gmail.com> wrote: > Here's my impression of Henry's proposal: > http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Voctest/eq_iac2 > ...and I've drafted target pages for the links. > > Henry originally proposed putting the rank tag "inside the parentheses > that give the English name for the primitive" > ...Here's what I think he means: > http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Voctest/eq_iac > > ...The trouble with that is I don't know how to make it clickable. Any > sort of formatting gets ignored in the: == {heading} == > > BTW -- I've added a "Thru to: Dictionary" link. > This duplicates the See Also (no harm in that) but is in a handier > position. > There's also room on that "tag bar" (let's call it) for further links, eg: > >> << > > > On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Henry Rich <henryhr...@nc.rr.com> wrote: > >> If all the change ends up requiring is an edit to every valence of every >> verb, adding a string to the Wiki page, that's certainly feasible. I might >> even be able to dragoon a class of students into doing it. The key thing >> is to work out the design. >> >> Agreed that the numbers 0 0 0 are baffling to the beginner. I have >> taught enough beginners to vouch for this. >> >> So, what is to be done? Maybe we can settle it in this Forum, with the >> participation of all. >> >> 0. Where should rank be indicated? >> >> 1. What words should indicate it? >> >> 2. What should those words link to? >> >> 3. Is more information needed? >> >> I'll start with my proposal: >> >> 0. inside the parentheses that give the English name for the primitive >> >> 1. for monads, choose from >> 'operates on individual atoms of y' >> 'operates on lists of y' >> 'operates on tables of y' >> 'operates on y as a whole' >> >> for dyads, >> 'operates on individual atoms of x and y' >> 'operates on lists of x and y' >> 'operates on lists of x, and on y as a whole' >> etc. >> >> 2. Each string will link to a page or subpage describing /that rank >> individually/. Rank 0 will go to a description of rank 0, rank 1 _ to a >> description of rank 1 _, etc. There will be a separate page describing the >> general theory of verb rank, which will be linked by the individual pages >> for when the beginner is ready for it. >> >> 3. No. >> >> Henry Rich >> >> >> On 1/20/2014 11:42 AM, Ian Clark wrote: >> >>> @Henry -- your argument did occur to me, just after I pressed the send >>> button... >>> >>> I think I agree with what you say, pivoted heavily on the word >>> "painlessly". >>> >>> If I'd been brutally honest with myself I'd have admitted that I'd been >>> working out how to implement Brian's suggestion and seen it would have >>> been >>> awkward at this late stage. The feature should have been incorporated >>> when >>> the original set of stubs was generated. It's a design failure that it >>> wasn't. >>> >>> I did try to anticipate the need to retrofit a new template to existing >>> content. But I wouldn't like to have to try it in practice. >>> >>> I conjecture that the bare Ranks, e.g. _ _ _ -is baffling to the novice. >>> Like all conjectures this needs proof (which I don't have and can't get). >>> The guiding light of NuVoc is to lean over backwards to avoid being >>> baffling. >>> >>> But something is needed -- and it needs to work as you prescribe, and to >>> be >>> effective, else it isn't worth doing. I confess I don't know the answer. >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:20 PM, Henry Rich <henryhr...@nc.rr.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Agreed that the important thing for NuVoc is to give the beginner what >>>> they need, in a form that they can understand without having to follow a >>>> trail. >>>> >>>> But asking a genuine beginner whether they need to see the ranks is like >>>> asking a congressman a question about economics, and just as likely to >>>> discover the right answer. >>>> >>>> Here's a proposal to consider: >>>> >>>> in http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Vocabulary/ltdot, for example, where >>>> we >>>> now have >>>> >>>> <. y (Floor) >>>> >>>> we could instead have >>>> >>>> <. y (Floor, operates on individual atoms) >>>> >>>> The 'operates on individual atoms' bit would link to a discussion of >>>> verb >>>> rank. >>>> >>>> By seeing the rank described verbally, right there on every verb, a >>>> beginner would notice this subtle difference between verbs, and would >>>> eventually be tempted to understand what it means. >>>> >>>> The questions posted to this Forum prove that you can't survive as a J >>>> coder without understanding rank. I think NuVoc should accept the >>>> mission >>>> of teaching the beginner that fact, as painlessly as possible. >>>> >>>> >>>> Henry Rich >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 1/20/2014 10:47 AM, Ian Clark wrote: >>>> >>>> @Brian - Thanks for your appreciation. It's encouraging. Throughout >>>>> I've >>>>> had the niggling feeling that the J Dic was hard to improve on, and I >>>>> was >>>>> adding little or no value. >>>>> >>>>> Unlike the J Dic, NuVoc doesn't show the Rank(s) of a verb. The >>>>> original >>>>> idea was for it to do so. But I think that's advanced information for a >>>>> beginner, and best seen by clicking through to the J Dic via the "See >>>>> Also". >>>>> >>>>> Others will vehemently disagree, and I think I can predict who they'll >>>>> be. >>>>> >>>>> But maybe I'll come to see that a bold button in the same place on >>>>> every >>>>> title line to click through to the Dic entry would be good, if not >>>>> essential. >>>>> >>>>> If anyone wants to go through all the verbs and add the Ranks to the >>>>> title >>>>> lines, I'm not going to throw a tantrum. Not if its done consistently, >>>>> and >>>>> right. >>>>> >>>>> Can we hear the authoritative voice of a genuine beginner about this? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jan 20, 2014 at 4:45 AM, Brian Schott <schott.br...@gmail.com >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ian, >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> That is amazing. Thank you for that great resource. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know if I dare ask the following, but, here goes. Is there any >>>>>> way >>>>>> to add a feature -- I think it's called a tool-tip -- to the main page >>>>>> which would show the rank of each verb when someone hovers over the >>>>>> primitive? If so, would other folks use such a feature? >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> (B=) >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> ---------- >>>>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/ >>>>>> forums.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>> ---------- >>>>>> >>>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ---------- >>>>> >>>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>>> >>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm >> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
