I am not hoping to change people's minds; nevertheless, I would like to
explain, to some degree, my rationale regarding my current notion of what a
gerund is.

The Dictionary is famous (or infamous according to some?) for its
terseness.  It is not really surprising to me that different people have
different understandings even regarding the very important concept of
gerund.  Personally, I use Dictionary as the primary source but
complemented by other official documents, forum information (particularly
opinions and statements from certain people), third party sources, and
first and foremost the "real thing", the interpreter(s) which it is, after
all, where programs and utilities for writing programs, some of which are
very important to me, run.

Let me start with the (current version of the) Dictionary, this is how I
perceive it, given its terseness, the statement  "Verbs act upon nouns to
produce noun results..." is generally interpreted as "Verbs act upon nouns
[and only nouns] to produce noun [and only noun] results..." and other
supporting evidence clearly confirm that is the intention.

Therefore, assuming that the Dictionary is consistent, then the statement
related to the to the entry Tie (Gerund),
"
More generally, tie produces gerunds as follows: u`v is au,av , where au
and av are the (boxed noun) atomic representations (5!:1) of u and v .
Moreover, m`n is m,n and m`v is m,av and u`n is au,n . See Bernecky and Hui
[12]. Gerunds may also be produced directly by boxing.
"
could be intrepreted as "... tie produces gerunds [and only gerunds]..."
 (I know that, actually , tie can produce also nouns which are not gerunds;
just as a verbs can produce words which are not a nouns.)

Incidentally, I do not regard foreings as part of the core language either
but they are in the Dictionary, and they are used to illustrate points,
even when discussing a primitive (see (5!:1) above).

Furthermore, "Moreover, m`n is m,n and m`v is m,av and u`n is au,n"
suggests that both, the left and right arguments do not have to be verbs.
Indeed, the gerund (produced by)  +`-`* is equivalent to (+`-)`* and (+`-)
is not a verb it is a gerund (i.e, a noun).

The last sentence "Gerunds may also be produced directly by boxing" is
quite important in the context of last part of that page,
"
The atomic representation of a noun (used so as to distinguish a noun such
as '+' from the verb +) is given by the following function:
   (ar=: [: < (,'0')"_ ; ]) '+'
+-----+
|+-+-+|
||0|+||
|+-+-+|
+-----+

   *`(ar '+')
+-+-----+
|*|+-+-+|
| ||0|+||
| |+-+-+|
+-+-----+
"

There, clearly, the right argument (ar '+') of  `  is the atomic
representation of a noun ('+') not a verb.  That is, *`(ar '+') is a gerund
and, for example, G=. (*:`ar 0 1 2) is a gerund well.

Let me jump to the Dictionary's entry for Evoke Gerund (`:),
"
m `: 6 Train Result is the train of individual verbs.
"

Right, it is referring to a train of verbs but the entry is Evoke Gerund
and G (defined above) is a gerund which makes sense (to me) as a train; so
I expect G`:6 to work, and it does,

   G`:6
0 1 4

Let me jump to the Dictionary's entry for Agenda (@.),

"
m@.n is a verb defined by the gerund m with an agenda specified by n ; that
is, the verb represented by the train selected from m by the indices n . If
n is boxed, the train is parenthesized accordingly. The case m@.v uses the
result of the verb v to perform the selection.
"

Again, verbs are mentioned; yet again, I expect G@.0 1 to work, and it does,

   G@.0 1
0 1 4

Incidentally, if is not for producing code (and executing code), what is
the purpose of "If n is boxed, the train is parenthesized accordingly. The
case m@.v uses the result of the verb v to perform the selection" (see
above)?

What did the original co-designer and implementor of the language write, in
the post I mentioned before, responding to the question, how to test for a
gerund?

Here it is,
"
[Jprogramming] how to test for a gerund  Roger Hui
   gerundYN=: 0 -. at e. 3 : ('y (5!:0)';'1')"0 :: 0:

   gerundYN +`*
1
   gerundYN <'0';i.5
1
   gerundYN <i.5
0
   gerundYN 5!:1 <'gerundYN'
1

See also http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/dx005.htm#1
"

He used a foreign (5!:0) to write his testing verb, he "produced directly
by boxing" a gerund and tested it ( gerundYN <'0';i.5 ), and he used a
foreign to produce a gerund and tested it ( gerundYN 5!:1 <'gerundYN' ).

I could keep going but all the above is enough for me to justify my opinion
that a gerund is not merely a list of atomic representations of verbs.
Ultimately, it does not matter what name (gerund, gerundive, etc.), if any,
is given to these entities; different people at different times have used these
AND related entities in the context of `:6 , and  @. .  I, for one, would
not be a happy camper if the official interpreter is changed in such a way
that my programs and utilities for writing programs break down, even if I
have an alternative.

Finally, I would like to pose a simple yet subtle question to those who do
not regard a gerund as merely a list of of atomic representations of verbs,

   erase'v'
1

   gerundYN 'v'  NB. Roger's test...
1

   isgerund =: 0:`(0 -. @ e. 3 : ('y (5!:0)';'1')"0)@.(0 < L.) :: 0:

   isgerund 'v'   NB. Pascal's test
0

Is 'v' a gerund or not?


On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Bill <bbill....@gmail.com> wrote:

> From my understanding, the reference shows the atomic representation of
> gerund. It does not advocate this a way to construct a gerund. moreover it
> is "foreign" conjunction.
>
> numbers can be converted from strings using foreign conjunction but it
> doesn't mean J encourages writing numbers using this method.
>
> IMO foreign conjunction is not a part of J core.
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 4 Aug, 2017, at 5:33 AM, Jose Mario Quintana <
> jose.mario.quint...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "
> > In J dictionary, only tie conjunction
> > on verbs was mentioned to produce a gerund.
> > "
> >
> > I am afraid you might not be the only one who has reached such
> conclusion.
> > Nevertheless, in my opinion, it is a misconception that a gerund can only
> > be a list (of atomic representations) of verbs.  Why?  See [0] in the
> > context of [1].
> >
> > [0] Atomic
> >    http://www.jsoftware.com/help/dictionary/dx005.htm#1
> >
> > [1] [Jprogramming] how to test for a gerund  Roger Hui
> >    http://www.jsoftware.com/pipermail/programming/2010-April/019178.html
> >
> > Mind you  gerundYN  is not bulletproof.
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 5:46 AM, bill lam <bbill....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I am thinking of the opposite. In J dictionary, only tie conjunction
> >> on verbs was mentioned to produce a gerund. Boxed verbs had not been
> >> mentioned. Atomic representation of boxed verbs looks like that of
> >> gerund and therefore can work as gerund. IMO this is a backdoor
> >> provided by J implementation.
> >>
> >> Metadata could be attached to "real" gerunds that have ancestors which
> >> were  results of verb`verb. All other nouns without this DNA would be
> >> regarded as non-gerund.
> >>
> >> Just my 2 cents.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 3:57 PM, Marshall Lochbaum <mwlochb...@gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>> Can I just point out that it's not too late to add some (documented)
> way
> >>> to box verbs/adverbs/conjunctions? These could be treated as gerunds by
> >>> everything that currently uses gerunds, and the interpreter can just
> >>> throw an error if anything attempts to actually unbox them. They are
> >>> much harder to confuse than the current gerunds, and will have far
> >>> better performance.
> >>>
> >>> This sounds like a radical divergence from the way J works now, but I
> >>> don't think it is in practice. Programmers would use some new
> >>> conjunction to replace (`), and provided they don't inspect the
> >>> structure of gerunds nothing else changes. I suppose there would need
> to
> >>> be a way to check what class of object a box contains, because unboxing
> >>> to check the type is not allowed. Gerunds would remain useful for
> >>> programmers who want to inspect functions or build them from scratch,
> >>> but would otherwise become obselete.
> >>>
> >>> Marshall
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For information about J forums see http://www.jsoftware.com/forums.htm
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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